Try to keep up. I wasn’t responding to your OP, I was responding to your follow-up post. The one I quoted.
You seem to think that people carry everyday despite the fact that they will most likely never, ever, ever, use their firearm. You asked if people carry a pistol only so that they have it “just in case”. You seemed rather perplexed by this.
My response was to show you that the effects of civilians carrying a firearms is larger than the individual carrying it. The presence of lawful concealed carry, and the fact that citizens are carrying, helps to reduce violent crime.
There is more reason for a person to carry than “just in case”. An armed populace will discourage violent crime. And there is no reliable way to measure its full effects with polling statistics.
It’s like trying to see how effective LoJack is at preventing auto theft by only counting how many LoJack vehicles were recovered. When, in reality, countless vehicles even without LoJack, probably avoided being stolen simply because the criminal thought LoJack might have been installed.
So people out there installing LoJack on their vehicles effectively reduces the chance that MY vehicle will be stolen. Citizens out there carrying firearms reduces the chance that even noncarrying citizens will be attacked.
Ok, I’l stop hijacking this thread, as it obviously hasn’t run its course yet. It’s just that in the Netherlands, the population isn’t just anti-gun; as much as 95 % percent of the population is opposed to recreational hunting. No-one, in this gun-free society, apart from professional law-enforcers, carries a gun thinking they might need it to shoot a criminal person. So, as that possibility isn’t a possibility, the question from the OP, translated to Dutch cultural circumstances, would be “have you ever used your gun to shoot anything else; so, animals?”. That would give an estimate of how many gun owners expect to use their gun for anything but practice shooting.
And I only mentioned them in that quote because Argent Tower had mentioned one of them in the post before. In my response, I asked you for a figure for how many police officers fire at a person in the course of their duty, and you replied with a load of incidental opinion.Can you actually answer either of my questions, or are you just going to carry on defending your position?
Just as an anecdote, I have carried a pistol in placed where the thought was that I’d most likely need it to defend myself against an animal. Kayaking in aligator habitat for instance. I’ve never been hunting though, and I’ve never shot an animal before.
Just curious about your police officers. Do all of them carry firearms?
Do forgive me. I thought I had the same entitlement of a guest, and was able to come on here and ask questions which other people may be better suited to answer. If everyone had such Google Fu skills, the Dope would be a little redundant, don’t you think?
Yes, the standard issue firearm is a Walther P5. Holland doens’t have the distinction Brits have between Bobby’s (no gun) and other police (with gun). Dutch police also carry pepperspray, and a short club.
However, most security officers aren’t permitted to carry arms. Many security officers, therefore, adopt a uniform that mimics a policemans’ uniform, and carry their walkie-talkies or flaslights in such a way that it looks like they are carrying a weapon.
Yes, it’s an NRA publication, but it’s analyzing and referencing a peer-reviewed epidemiological-type study that found something like 1,000,000 defensive uses of firearms in the U.S. each year.
There are more guns in the hands of citizens than ever before. The FBI don’t take a stand one way or the other, but I think a couple of things may be inferred.
[ul][li]Private gun ownership, especially the increase in the number of people lawfully carrying concealed weapons, reduces the incidence of violent crime, or;[/li][li]Private gun ownership does not reduce the incidence of violent crime and the statistics are the result of non-gun-related societal changes.[/ul][/li]If the former, then restrictions on ownership and carrying may be detrimental. If the latter, then it tends to point to larger societal issues being the problem and not guns.
Seconding the “most of us.” Moose makes marvelous chili, and we ate off that 1/4 bison for months. There are also a few coyotes that won’t be trying to eat my cats anymore, thanks to a properly-placed round from my 10/22.
I once saw an “investigative report”-type news story where the reporter went into a local prison and talked to a bunch of convicted robbers about their fears about getting shot.
Almost none of them feared getting shot by the police, because they expected to be long gone by the time a cop arrived. Most of them did, however, fear that they might get shot by their would-be victim.
For thirty five years I have kept a fire extinguisher in my kitchen, replacing it periodically and I have never used it once, but I figure if I need one nothing else will do.
Other than the small fee for getting a permit, it costs you absolutely nothing to carry it. I don’t even notice it anymore except when I am put into the position where I have to leave it behind. The only reason I notice it then is because I have to find a way to safely put it away. The rest of the time it’s as if it’s like a set of keys or my cell phone.
I never understood the rhetoric about the topic. People with permits do not abuse the right, there is no blood on the streets, and it’s not a big deal.
Seconding what Airman Doors said. A minor inconvenience most of the time - a little money for the required training class (which was orders of magnitude less intensive than training I’ve taken voluntarily), a $125 for the permit, and a couple of extra pounds on my belt. I don’t know anyone that goes around looking for crime, I don’t know anyone that’s had to shoot anyone, I do know of a couple incidences where someone got out of a potentially tight situation because they had a gun.
It’s certainly not a big deal once you get all the stuff, it’s just another tool on your belt. Using a public restroom is the only time it’s bothersome. Sitting down, that is.
As a certified law-abiding citizen, I’m no more dangerous to be around than a police officer. Maybe less, because I’m going to go out of my way to avoid situations.
Ivan, you might also want to look into how many gun owners have drawn their weapon in a dangerous situation but not actually fired it. Huerta88’s link is probably a good starting point. And while I doubt that there’s anything more than anecdotal evidence, how many people have said “I am armed”, perhaps including cases where they open their jacket to display their gun (or whatever) without actually having to take it out of the holster.
Same with police officers. I know, for example, that my cousin (who is a police officer in SoCal) has had to draw his gun several times in the line of duty but he’s never fired a shot outside of the range.
If you meet me in public, odds are I will be carrying. I have never had need to shoot someone nor even use it as a deterent. I quite like it that way.
I have homeowners insurance and life insurance and I’ve never had to use them either. Also an ideal situation IMHO.
I have auto insurance and a fire extinguisher and I have had cause to use both of them. Had I not had them I would be out several thousands of dollars at the least. Should I ever find myself in need of a firearm it will be a circumstance where the stakes are much higher than money. It is my deepest desire that I never find myself in that situation.
A man in my department at work has had a gun held to his head during a restaurant robbery where he just happened to be a customer in the wrong place at the wrong time. A lady in another department has been shot five times in the back and twice in the head. Fortunately she survived and the shooter is now a guest of the state. Another lady is my friend now only because the gun pointed at her head misfired.
My gun is not an excuse to go strolling down back alleys and through neighborhoods that I have no reason to be in. I avoid potentially dangerous situations as much now as I did before I got my permit. The difference is that I’m now better prepared in the event that I find myself in dire straits despite my best efforts to avoid them.
And yes, I have shot animals for just about every imaginable reason excepting malice. That is a reasonable expectation living in the country.
I put on a seat belt every time I board a car, airplane, or amusement park ride. I have yet to use one.
I put on a parachute and seatbelts every time I fly my sailplane. I have yet to use the parachute, but the belts are nice for remaining in control in strong turbulence.
I wear a helmet every time I ride a bicycle. I have used it once.
I wear a helmet every time I ride a motorcycle. I have used it twice.
Since the frequency of actual use is so low, I guess I’d probably be just as safe if I didn’t bother with the darned things.
Look, If I knew for sure which day I was going to crash, I’d wear a helmet then, and not bother the rest of the time. If I knew which day I was going to be mugged…
FYI, Cecil addressed this somewhat in his column recently.
Further to that, what Cecil didn’t say in his column (presumably because he ran out of space) is that the report also said that nearly three-quarters claimed during a burglary they avoided confronting homeowners out of fear of being shot. One can only assume that in a gun-banning environment, burglars would not have that fear (although it is not logical proof that they would confront homeowners, as the criminal may have many other obvious reasons not to do so).
Anyone who wants to read it themselves, see this: Kates, Don B., Jr. “The Value of Civilian Handgun Possession as a Deterrent to Crime or a Defense Against Crime” 18 AM. J. OF CRIM. L. 113-167 (1991).
He was providing that comment as a basis for comparison. Police officers obviously would be put in positions where the use of their firearms was needed far more often than a civilian would. It is relevant for contrast. As far as I know, there are no national statistics available for police officer firearms use. This article from Common Dreams, which is highly critical of this lack of statistics posits some reasons why there aren’t any aggregate numbers, but those are more or less guesswork.
I found one article in the LA Times from 2004 — which is also critical toward the granularity of police record keeping in shooting cases — that gives some actual numbers for the LAPD: “Nearly 90% of the officers who have worked field assignments since 1985 never fired their weapons in the line of duty,” with 1,648 of a total estimated number of 16,000 officers being involved in 1,316 shooting incidents (circumstances unspecified) from 1985 to mid-2004; almost 20 years of collected information. If the specific case of the LAPD can be generalized to any extent, it is true that even in large metropolitan areas with relatively high violent crime rates the vast majority of police officers will never have to fire their weapons in the line of duty.
Police have guns, computers, radios, maybe helicopters and SWAT Teams at their fingertips, so violent criminals would rarely target the cops, (though some whackos invariably do) and actively avoid them. But in round numbers, over 10% of them (LAPD) fired their service weapons AT SOMEONE, TRYING TO KILL THEM in about 20 years. This for a government agency system that does not exist to defend the public from violent crimes. These are probably slow or unlucky criminals caught during or just after their crimes who demonstrated a need to have deadly force used against them, or known criminals who demonstrated a need to have deadly force used against them when they were approached for questioning or apprehension after an investigation.
Yeah, I have a cell phone when I am out and about, but no helos and no SWAT Teams at my disposal. Aside from my appearance (6’2", beefy, short hair), I am a MUCH more attractive target than the cops for a violent crime. I have a Georgia Firearms License (CCW in this state), and I have carried, and I will carry, from time to time or every chance I get, depends on circumstances. But criminals in Georgia know there is a decent chance that I am carrying, or the guy next to me is, and we could use deadly force against them to stop a violent crime in progress with little to no fear or legal recriminations.