A question for Uke, Chef Troy, and any other foodies out there

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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(Mods, I know this probably oughta be in GQ, but I don’t know that Cheffie or Uke hang out there. I tried to make it ramble-y and non-specific so hopefully it’ll be OK in MPSIMS)

I baked bread this weekend. Once upon a time, I baked bread once a week, every week. I got pretty damn good at it, if I say so myself. I made the best damn rustic style loaves you could make, given that I don’t have a real brick oven to bake 'em in. My baguettes were lovely, as was my American-style sandwich bread. Everyone loved me. I was more attractive. Smarter, too. Alas, this has all changed.

(ahem… back to bread). Anyway, I baked a rustic style wheat loaf this weekend, and came up with a problem I remember having way back when I used to bake a lot. Using Fleishman’s Active Dry yeast, I get a nice dough that rises very well. I rise it once, then punch it down & form loaves. I let them rise, then bake 'em on a pizza stone in a convection oven.

The result? No oven rise. None at all. It just sits there like a rock in the oven.

From previous experience I know that using fresh yeast as opposed to dry, and making the sponge the night before and letting it rise overnight will result in a loaf that springs up beautifully when I put it in the oven. I’d really like to figure out how to make this work with a 2 or 3 hour sponge and dry yeast simply for the convenience of it all. I checked a couple o’ reference books, and came up with a couple suggestions - I could be baking it too hot, or allowing it to rise too long. However, when using fresh yeast, I bake it at the same heat level, and it turns out fine. Rising with fresh yeast is an entirely different beast, so it’s hard to draw any conclusions there.

Do you foodies have any ideas? I’m thinking maybe I oughta talk the SO into letting me put a brick oven in the kitchen. Or buying more cookware, or one o’ those Hobarts that are 5’ tall. Something’s gotta fix this…

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There are a couple of things that you may wish to address in order to solve this problem. I will, for the moment, ignore the fact that you have probably baked a lot more bread than I have.

[li]Wheat loaves are notoriously dense and heavy, especially if you are using wheat berries or other seeds. Therefore your attempts to work with a faster sponge may be limiting the ability of the loaf to achieve a good second rise prior to baking.[/li]
[li]If the dough is particularly dense you may wish to experiment with a different slashing pattern on the loaf top. This will allow the loaf to unfold more easily during the oven rising phase.[/li]
[li]You may wish to feed the sponge some extra sugar during its formation so as to get more vigorous activity from it.[/li]
[li]Careful attention to when and where you add the salt may have an influence as well. I would add it at the very last minute so as to avoid its toxic effects on the yeast.[/li]
[li]Be sure to avoid overworking the dough after the punchdown. It is easy to deflate the dough beyond its ability to rise again.[/li]
[li]You may wish to experiment with a slightly lower oven temperature. Since you are using a convection oven, you also may be “searing” the loaf top and prohibiting it from expanding during the oven rise. (See above comments on the slash pattern.) A two stage temperature staircase may allow the loaf to oven rise more easily at first.[/li]I hope that some of these suggestions are of use to you. Please let us know the results. If you have a recipe for an “English Muffin” style of bread, please post it at my recipe thread (see sig link).

Best wishes.

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I’m more of an entree guy, to be honest. Baking requires too much precision for my tastes… I prefer to sling in a dash of this and a pinch of that, and that will get you lousy results when baking.

However, I do have a couple of small suggestions for you… not to fix the recipe but to fix your oven. You can approximate a brick oven by taking a cookie sheet and lining it with unglazed terra cotta tiles (tell your building-supply person what you’re using them for so they don’t give you mexican tiles with toxic stuff in.)

If that’s too much work you can always use a pizza stone.

Sorry I don’t have a suggestion about the recipe. Try me with a non-baking question and I am more likely to be able to help.

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{snort} GQ is my meat and potatoes, Athena, baby. You’ll find me there on any given day, expounding on matters of serious import. I only come into MPSIMS for a mental breather. Then it’s back to the theoretical astrophysics, Reformation poetry, and gardening tips for moi.

{waves hand upward at Zenster’s and Chef Troy’s posts} What those guys said.

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Cheffie, I HAVE a pizza stone. Bummer. Would you mind changing your whole professional life and becoming a baker so I can then pick your brain more successfully? Pretty please?

Zenster, good suggestions. I’ll go through 'em:

Wheat loaves are a bitch, I agree. It doesn’t help that I’m the type of personality that it has become war, in my head at least. I WILL figure out how to do this. Anyways, 'taint no problem with the second rising. It rises just fine, until I get it in the oven.

Good suggestion, although the types of slashes don’t seem to make much difference. I had a round loaf and a long loaf, both with different slash patterns, and neither rose.

That’s cheating. 'course I can do that. But I WILL make it work with just flour, yeast, salt, and water, come hell or high water.

Yeah, I know about that. Like I said, the first and second rising went well, so I don’t think the salt killed the yeast. Hmmmm…

Per above, second rising went well, so I don’t think I killed it during the punch down.

Another good one to try. Something tells me that the convection oven is too hot, but the part I don’t understand is why if I do the overnight sponge with the wet yeast it cooks just fine at the same temperature.

I guess there’s only one thing left to do - quit my job and bake bread until I figure this out.

(ps, will look around for the English Muffin bread recipe…)

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First of all: Were you using 100% whole wheat flour? If so, that may have been your problem. With 100% whole wheat flour, it is difficult for the dough to get any good gluten production, hence the bread will not be able to get a decent structure during the fermentation and baking process. Cut your whole wheat flour with some white bread flour (use bread flour when possible–it has a higher gluten content, and will produce better loaves)–a 50/50 ratio works well.

You don’t necessarily need to add more sugar to your sponge. Add an extra tablespoon of (white, not wheat) flour, which is certainly not cheating. It will provide the carbohydrates the yeast need to produce.

I would also check your oven’s heat–maybe even get an oven thermometer to double check your heat.

It is also possible that you let your 2nd fermentation go on too long–your loaves will not rise if the 2nd proofing goes on for too long.

I do have an English Muffin recipe from school. Considering I have to go get ready now, I’ll post it tonight after my shift. I remember doing English Muffins for my Baking I final, but can’t remember exact numbers on the recipe.