I’m attempting to learn how to make bread. By hand, that is; I made a lot with a bread machine. I’m working from James Beard’s classic, Beard On Bread. The first time I made his first recipe, Basic White Bread, I got a very dense loaf. Delicious, but dense. I had set the dough bowl on top of the TV and Cable box, and turned both on. I don’t think I did the kneading right, and I didn’t get much rising.
For the second loaf, the kneading was a little better, and the rising was done in the bathroom with an electric heater going. Better rising, but it took longer than the recipe predicted. After the second rising, the dough fell to half its size before I could get it to the oven.
The third loaf worked better. I might be getting the hang of kneading. I worked it longer until it really did spring back when I poked it with my fingers. The finished loaf was a bit above the top of the loaf pan.
Over the weekend, we were looking through a crock-pot recipe book, and it suggested using the slow-cooker for dough rising. I made a test run with a thermometer in an empty bowl inside the cooker (minus the crock liner,) and it was 160 degrees F. It that too hot for the yeast? Maybe I should have left the liner in.
I am going to keep making this one recipe until I get it right. Then, I’ll move on to other breads.
My compliments on using Beard’s book. IMNSHO, it’s the best bread book out there. I use it at work, making the challah and the pita breads with some regularity.
About 85 degrees is a good temp. After kneading the dough I place the bowl in my oven, the oven being unlit, or cool. I boil a pot of water and place the steaming pot in the oven and close the door. I reheat the water a couple of times while the bread is rising. The surface of the dough does not dry out, due to the humidity.
You might try rapid rise yeast. I was a bit leary of it, but it works very well and cuts the wait by a huge amount. I don’t like getting the rising dough too far from the oven because of the problem you stated. I usually turn on the oven to the baking temperature, set a towel over the vent burner, and put the covered dough on top of that. Works just fine.
I tried to learn how to make bread from Beard on Bread. I failed miserably. I just don’t think it’s detailed enough for a beginner. I had a lot of the same problems the OP describes.
I did finally manage to learn how to make some damn good loaves, using a combination of Bread Alone, Village Baker, and Cook’s Illustrated magazine.
Kneading, as you’re starting to realize, is key. You eventually learn how it’s supposed to look, and knead to that specification. A stand mixer is great for this, if you have one.
A lot of books talk about temperature. Temp of the ingredients, temp of the rising space, temperature temperature temperature. I used to be really anal about it, making sure my water was perfectly 85 degrees (or whatever it called for), but in reality, I never noticed much of a difference. Sure, the bread rises a bit faster if it’s warmer, but IMO a slow rise results in better bread. Some of the best bread I’ve made rose in the refrigerator, overnight. Nowadays I rarely worry about temperature - I just plunk it on the counter, away from any direct hot or cold air, and let it do its thing.
One thing I have noticed - humidity makes a difference. My bread is better if I cover it with plastic wrap while it rises. My WAG is that a dried outer skin impedes rising. If you live in a dry climate, especially - it was worse when I lived in dried-out Colorado than nice-n’-humid Michigan.
Yeast also matters. When I was learning, I had better luck with fresh yeast, available in cakes in the refrigerated section of most grocery stores. Nowadays I use mostly dry, but for some reason the wet worked better at first.
I always just turned on the oven for a minute, then turned it off, and then put in the bowl of bread dough (covered with a damp cloth). Maybe once or twice more during the rising I’d turn the oven on for just a few seconds and then turn it off again. It always worked just fine.
Since we’re talking rising and yeast, I have a question for the other home bakers:
I have a recipe that calls for approx. 1 oz. fresh or 3/4 oz. active dried yeast. I am currently in possession of a fairly large quantity of ‘Instant Yeast’ that I would like to use up. This stuff (Fleischmann’s, BTW) says 1 oz. fresh yeast = 1/3 oz. instant yeast.
I’m using approx. 2 tbsp of honey to activate the yeast, and I’m mixing in my Kitchen-Aid on a dough hook for about 15-20 minutes. I’ve been letting the dough rise on top of my oven, with the oven set on about 350. I cover it with Saran wrap while it rises.
But this stuff does not want to rise! It’s delicious, but fairly dense. Should I adjust the quantities of yeast? Honey? Mixing time? I currently guesstimate on the time to punch it down - it doesn’t grow noticeably larger no matter how long it sits (maybe 25% max.)
I am timing the first rising around 60-70 minutes, and after I punch it down and reshape it, I let it rise another 25-30 minutes, while I wait for the oven to get up to 425. I bake the bread for approx. 25-30 minutes or until it feels hollows when I tap the bottom.
Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. Baker - I’m going to try your rising in the oven idea. Sounds easy enough. Want to share any tricks for a super soft crust?
After much trial and error, and some reading, I am able to get consistently good results by doing the following:
[ul]
[li]Use bread flour, rather than all-purpose flour. That alone will make a noticeable difference.[/li][li]When proofing the yeast, make sure that the water temperature is 110 degrees, and on no account let it be higher than 115 degrees (because that will kill the yeast).[/li][li]Knead the dough thoroughly, no matter how long it takes (I see you have already learned that). Try not to work in too much additional flour during kneading. Also, when the dough starts to fight back, really lean into it a smoosh it good! Give it some elbow grease![/li][li]Lighly grease a large bowl, then put the dough in there and roll it around to grease the dough, then cover the bowl with a towel. This will stop the dough from developing a dry crust that might interfere with rising. Having the bowl lubricated also prevents friction with the bowl from inhibiting the rising.[/li][li]Find a warm draft-free place to let the dough rise. Usually, I turn on the oven for one minute, then turn it off and let the dough rise in there for about 1 hour. I have also had good results rising the dough on top of the drier while doing laundry.[/li][li]When doing the second rising (in the loaf tin), let it take as long as it needs - don’t go by time. If it collapses, that means you let it rise too high. You should be able to punch it down, reshape it, and try again, though.[/li][/ul]
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Here’s what I do: after the loaf is baked, brush the top with melted butter, then drape a damp towel over it while it cools.
The best place for letting yeast bread rise? The microwave. No kidding. Put about 1 cup of water in a 2 cup measure and nuke for around 3 minutes. Take measuring cup out of 'wave, and put in bowl of bread dough. Works like a charm.
Also, a scant tablespoon of active dry yeast is about the same as a package of same, or a cake of fresh yeast. I also proof my yeast before I mix the dough. Dissolve yeast in water as usual, but add about 1 tsp. of your sweetener to the water. Let stand about 10 mins. If you get foamy stuff, your yeast is good. If not, it’s dead; give it a funeral in the disposal and start over. I learned this from Breads, by Sharon Tyler Herbst, which is very unfortunately out of print. An excellent book, if you happen across it in a used book store. Highly recommended.
Thank you for the advice so far. Yes, I know a stand mixer w/ dough hook will save me some work, but it took some courage to get loose from the bread machine. “Use the force, Nott! Turn off the machines!”
I try to get out, but they keep dragging me back in!
Egad. Two movie cliches in one post in a thread about bread. I’m so ashamed.
Have you checked the expiration date on the yeast? If it’s dead, nothing in the world will help. And you are proofing it in honey and water, not just honey?
I generally hand knead, so I’m not sure, but that seems like a long time on the dough hook. Unfortunately, hand kneading is something best learned as a child, and it’s really hard to describe on the internet but I’ll try anyway. I go for the consistency of Playdoh for a medium soft sandwich loaf. A bit softer is good for rolls, a bit tougher is good for french bread or pizza.
As for rising, I too turn on oven for a minute then put it in there.
Good luck. Bread making is all about getting the right size holes.
Yes, it’s good. In fact, this thread inspired to make a loaf - it’s just started to cool.
I checked the yeast as per Manduck instructions - no problem.
I have a feeling it was a temperature issue - I used Baker’s tip about the pan of boiling water in the oven, and it gave me a respectable rise after about an hour.
So far, it’s looking really good. It’s a simple recipe I use - my father (an excellent baker and brewer) taught it to me.
I do the yeast and the honey (2.5 tbsp ea) in a cup warm water, and once that’s getting good and foamy I dump the dry ingredients in the mixer and slowly add the yeast mix while the hook is running at a medium speed.
As it starts to clump a bit I gradually slow down the mixer and add about 1/4 cup of Guinness (the usual) or some other nice porter or stout. I let that go for about 10 minutes on the hook, just keeping an eye on the consistency and texture. I slowly add in more beer until it’s right - usually about another 3/4 to 1 cup. Then I hand knead for another 5-10 minutes, until I’m cool with the texture.
Then it’s the rising and the baking, which has been amply discussed here.
I’m really eager for the spring - Althea and I are moving into a huge farmhouse outside of town and the kitchen is massive. We will be brewing and baking like there’s no tomorrow! (Plus we get to have chickens. That’s cool.)
Anyway, sorry for the hijack, but if the OP’s is cool with it, I’d love to swap some bread recipes! (If not, I’ll start another thread, natch) Off to try this new loaf!