A question on Christianity & Judaism

Great Debates
41

El Guapo asked.

“Also, I never really understood the “fullfilment” of the law concept. Can anyone explain that?”

Jesus did fulfill the law.

Jesus did not fulfill the law.

Jesus did not fulfill the untrue law.

Jesus did fulfill the true law.

At Matthew 5:17 Jesus said “Think not that I have come to abolish the law … But to fulfill it”.

The old law was (95% untrue) and Jesus did not fulfill it.

And from Matthew 5:19 - 7:27 Jesus reveals The True Law and this is “The Law” He did fulfill.

The reason that the old law was untrue is because it was given by the untrue lord. The ruler who was judged in Jn. 12:31, (no, this was not Satan).

Jn.12:40 "…HE…

has blinded them, lest they turn for…

…ME…

to heal them".

Who is the …HE…?

seeeyuh

42

An interesting discussion, sorry to be joining it late.

Tom has outlined how early Christianity adopted and adapted some Jewish ideas (and some fringe Jewish ideas) in those first centuries.

CMKeller has said that the Judaism of 2000 years ago was not significantly different than Judaism today (barring the obvious, such as destruction of the Temple, introduction of electric timers, etc.) I’d like to modify that slightly. Although early Christianity “sprang” from Judaism, the two religions have lived side-by-side (usually not amicably) for almost two millenia, and there has been influence from Christianity on modern Judaism.

For example, Judaism from Temple times was never much concerned with theology. Judaism was concerned with how to behave, not with the nature of God. As Christianity developed and became concerned with the nature of God (Three Gods in One, virginity of the Mother of God, nature of Jesus as human vs divine, etc), Judaism also took on some theology, primarily in a defensive mode. There were many confrontations, where Jews who had never bothered with theology before needed to be able to defend their religion against theological challenges. Maimonides, for example, set forth thirteen principles of Jewish faith, in the 1200s (or thereabouts).

Thus, I agree with cmKeller that practical(my slight modification) Judaism hasn’t changed much in the last 2000 years, but on a theological level, Judaism has developed “principles of faith” in response to Christianity that have become more rigid. Much of the development of modern-day Jewish notions of heaven and a messianic era are directly in response to the Christian ideologies. Much of mystic Judaism (Zohar) clearly derives from (and reacts against) mystic Christianity. A Jew of the year nought would have found those modern-day notions extremely bizarre.

BTW, if the OP is looking for ways in which Judaism and Christianity DO have common beliefs:

  • Belief in One God, creator of the universe
  • Belief that there is a Moral Code of Law governing behaviour; and general consensus on most of the ethical portions of that Law (Ten Commandments, for instance)
  • Belief that the One God is both just and merciful
  • Belief that there have been many prophets to bring the word of the One God to humankind, and a general agreement on who those prophets were and what they said (disagreement on who are the prophets after about 100 BC, of course, but there is almost 100% agreement on prophets through Ezra, say.)
  • Belief that God took His people from Egypt, brought them to Mount Sinai, and revealed His Laws there; and a common Biblical “history” (Abraham, Joseph, David, etc etc) until around 100 BC.
  • Belief that good is eventually rewarded and evil is eventually punished (although not necessarily in a way that is visible to mortals on earth)

We would, in fact, find the same beliefs common to Islam as well. The three great monotheist religions have a great deal in common.

As with the differences between the Catholics and the Protestants, or the various Lutheran denominations, there are times when the religions focus on the differences and
times when they focus on the similarities. Depends on the point being made. The differences between Judaism and Christianity are, of course, more massive than the differences between the Lutheran denominations (“Three religions with a common pension fund.”) Notice, however, that this discussion is always framed in terms of Judaism and Christianity, lumping together Catholicism and Protestantism, let alone trying to distinguish Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Mormons, etc.

43

CKDextHavn:

While I’ll admit that Judaism has, to a great degree, been forced to more clearly define itself in reaction to Christianity, the texts that do so would certainly not seem alien to the Talmudic-era Jew.

The best example is the one you gave of Maimonides’s thirteen principles of faith. Sure, he formulated them in the text we have today. But its source was his commentary on the Talmud Sanhedrin, Chapter 10, which described which offenses people can lose their reward in the World to Come over. All he did was isolate the concepts the Talmud itself defines as heretical and rewrite them in the positive form, i.e., a Jew, to properly observe the Judaic religion, must believe in these 13 things.

Mind you, the Zohar is a different story, and even today, there are disputes in the Orthodox world regarding its pedigree, so I’m not going to argue about that.

44

CKDextHavn:
All those properties you listed for similarities are Old Testament concepts. As is the concept of the messiah. But even if you get into those concepts now (I am talking today’s versions of Christianity and Judaism) most answers would be either vastly different or so general even athiest and agnostics would agree.

Belief in one God, creator of the universe. True, but mainstream Christianity holds the Trinity, Judaism does not. My guess is if you asked a Christian if they worship the same God as the OT, they would say yes (I know I would have), but if you ask a Jewish person if Christianity did, they would probably chuckle, and answer a resounding no. On the other side of the coin, Chistians would say that Jewish people do, but have failed to see the arrival of the Messiah as prophecied in the OT, and are therefore in error.

OT prophets. While agreeing that they brought the word of the One God, Christians would say that these prophesies point to Christ and his redemption, while Judaism would disagree on a number of grounds. While the prophecies are there, the interpretation varies widely, at least as it applies to the messiah.

Moral Code is something engrained in us all. I don’t think that anyone, regardless of beliefs, would say that the 10 commandments are bad ethically.

Good rewarded and evil punished, but in a vastly different way. And again, I think this is common to all religions. This can also be applied to the masses, ask anyone regardless of beliefs if the good should be rewarded and bad punished and it’s a fairly good bet you’ll get a yes.

I can understand re-assesing your beliefs, or listing principles in the face of heresy or for simplification for the uneducated (i.e. Maimonides 13 principles, the various Creeds formed in the early church) but those principles should have a solid base. I have always believed that the base on which Christianity came about was, other than Jesus, Judaism. It is not just that one religion believes the messiah has come and one hasn’t. It is more deeply rooted than that.

As for Christianity coming from Jewish ideas, I can only think of the early Christian church and the “fringe” ideas that came about then. The Gnostics and the Montanists where based on Christian ideas but firmly rejected by the church as not only “wrong” but “heretical”. These were more than just differences in opinion, these were theological barriers that could not be overcome.

I guess I’m at the point that the OP lists theoligical barriers that I am having a great deal of difficulty overcoming. There is a saying that a pastor I knew used to say “In essentials unity, in all other matters liberty.” And while I think this was partly a defense to some of the teachings the Pentecostal/Charasmatic church has been spouting for the last 100 years, it was also an explanation of how different Christian denominations can co-exist. However, I see no unity in essentials between Christianity and Judaism, just a lot of liberties taken.

45

Sorry Neo, but I haven’t a clue what you are trying to say.

46

Hi. I’m new here. Read through this thread with interest.

I’d just like to mention a couple of things. First, there seems to be a basic difference in the concept of “Prophet” between the Judiac view and the Christian view. The Judiac view is that a Prophet is a voice of G-d, speaking about the here and now. They are not Foretelling The Future, as Christians seem to believe. In fact, the line in Isaiah that is claimed by Christians to foretell the birth of Jesus, is actually written in past tense. “…has been born” not “will be born”. It references a military leader, not a devine being.

The concept of good and evil in Judiasm is a given. It is believed that all men contain both, which I find particularily interesting as we are made in HaShem’s image. In Judiasm it is not wrong to have an evil thought. It is wrong to act upon that evil thought. If you do wrong, you do not need an intermediary, such as a priest to hear your confession, to make it right. You must repent within yourself, offer restitution and apology to the person you have wronged. If you offer a sincere apology three times and it is refused, the shonda goes onto the other person.

Someone, somewhere brought up the idea that Judiasm was formed in part by Christianity, and alluded to the different denominations we see today. I offer that the denominations we see today (Conservative, Reform, Reconstruction) are very young. I think the reform movement only started in the 1850s or so, a product of assimilation, something Jews have been struggling against for all of our history. I find it interesting to see that many of our prayers and some of our rituals have been integrated into Christianity (such as the Kohaine blessing and the idea of a “mikvah” for baptisms) but often times, the Christians practicing these rituals and prayers have no idea of their origin.

In another post, it was mentioned that at some period of time Jews proseltyzed, actively seeking converts. To my knowledge, this is incorrect. We are specifically forbidden to solicit converts and will actively discourage someone who seeks us out.

I don’t know if y’all have picked up on Chiam’s use of the words “Chumash”, and “Torah”, as opposed to the Christian use of “Old Testament.” Er… I wish you would. :slight_smile:

Okay. I think I got myself into enough trouble for a first post. I wish El G. the best of luck in finding himself and reconsiling his confusion and I apologize in advance if I have caused more or inadvertently offended anyone.

47

I believe that Leah Channah may have not been entirely correct when she stated:

Avot deRabbi Natan 23a commands Jews to model themselves on Avraham Avinu and bring people “beneath the wings of the Divine Presence”. Genesis Rabbah relate that Joseph refused to give food to the Egyptians unless they were circumcised (which must be understod in the context as at least a partial conversion). Rabbi Yohanan specifically praises conversionary work in Pesahim. The midrashim state that Moses expounded Torah in seventy languages so that his words would be understood by all peoples, and that his killing of the Egyptian overseer in Berashith (Genesis) was justified by his forseeing that there would be no converts from his descendants.

Among non-Jewish writers, Tacitus, Juvenal, and Horace all mention Jewish proselytization (the first two hostilely, which indicates that it had some effect).

Salo Baron notes that, by the first century CE, the Jewish population of the Roman Empire was some eight million, or ten percent of the total, a number that does not allow of a mere natural increase, but implies an active and effective proselytization effort. It is not difficult to imagine that, given a slightly different history that did not include the Great Revolt and the Bar Kokhba revlot, Judaism might have ended by becoming the Roman state religion.

Now, it is true that there have always been Jewish particularists (see Rabbi Helbo’s disparaging attitude towards converts in Yevamot and elsewhere). Generally, however, anti-Jewish rulers took the lead in stifling conversion to Judaism by passing laws punishing both converts and the Jewish community as a whole. It is easy to understand the attitude of a medieval rabbi, who feared that every proclaimed convert might be an agent provocateur sent by the Inquisition. Still, Tosafot insisted that Halakhah mandated the conversion of Gentiles, and their acceptance in the Jewish community.

Chaim is, to best of my knowledge and belief, an Orthodox Jew. The Holy One, blessed be He, forbid that he ever be prevented from using that terminology with which he is most familar, and with which he feels most comfortable. For myself (and only for myself), I hold with that apostate Saul of Tarsus, who became all things to all men, that by all means he might save some.

48

The way you have expressed the Jewish idea regarding sin is not far from the RC position. There can be sinful thoughts (those that encourage hatred or dwell on lust to the exclusion of other thoughts), but the three things needed for sin were always expressed as “Know it; will it; do it.” One must know an action is sinful, choose to do it, and actually do it.

In the RC tradition, one does not go to a priest to be forgiven by God. The priest acts as the intermediary between the sinner and the Body of Christ (God and all the people of God) as an outward recognition that sin harms not just the insulted person and the sinner, but the entire community. The RC belief is that God forgives as soon as the sinner is truly repentant, regardless of whether the sinner has availed himself of the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

If I gave the impression that Judaism was formed in any way by Christianity, I apologize for not being clearer. I would say that any human institution interacts with the world in which it finds itself and that Judaism may have used to mirror of Christianity to make sure that it stayed true to its own beliefs, but I would not want to give the impression that Judaism borrowed any belief from Christianity. It may, as Dex has pointed out, have been prompted by Christian influences to look at new ways to express those beliefs. I’ll let you and Dex and Chaim work out the degree to which those expressions represent “new” thought. Any references to different denominations that I have made have been in the context of trying to use analogies to describe differences and similarities “on the other side of the fence.”

The period of missionary activity was limited to a relatively short period (200 years?) leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70. My source for this is at home; I’ll post it later.

49

I had to go back to the books for this one and I learned a few new things, so that was good.

Just so we’re on the same page: I’m defining proselytizing is the active act of encouraging someone to convert to your beliefs.

“Dearer to G-d is the proselyte who has **come of his own accord **than all the crowds of Israelites who stood before Mount Sinai. For had the Israelites not witnessed the thunder, lightning, quaking mountains, and sounding of trumpets, they would not have accepted the Torah. But the proselyte, who saw not one of these things, came and surrendered himself to the HOly One, blessed be He, and took the yoke of heave upon himself. Can anyone be dearer to G-d than this man?” (Tanhuma, ed. Buber, Leckh Lekah 6 f., 32a - emphasis mine)

“One who is about to become a proselyte is not received at once. Rather, he is asked: 'What has induced you to convert? Do you not know that this nation is downtrodden more than all other nations?” (Geirim 1:1)

Three times the Bible says ‘Return’ [in the case of Ruth the Moabite] for the three times that one must discourage him who seeks to become a proselyte; but if he continues to press to be received, then he is received.

So my response is still, no, Judiasm does not proselytize. It will accept a convert but not actively seek one.

I would be very interested to see Tom’s evidence to the contrary.

50

Tomndebb,
Given your explanation about confession, whould you elaborate about last rites?
Thanks

51

Leah, you continue to refer to the current situation in which proselytization is not actively encouraged. I have no argument with that. The period I spoke of lasted only a fairly short time, ending over 1,900 years ago.

That said, I have not been able to find the quote I remember in my primary source, of course.

I was able to find references to aggressive Jewish apologetics in Chapter X, Section 3 of Solomon Grayzel’s A History of the Jews. He does not include the description that I remember that I thought was his. I will now have to run through various texts looking for what I thought I read in his book.

He makes the point that as the Jewish people prospered under the early years of the Pax Romana, they outgrew their lands in Palestine and began to settle in many other parts of the Roman empire. (This was an earlier phase of the Diaspora that occurred before the deportations that occurred at the end of each rebellion against Rome.) Finding themselves surrounded by pagans, many of those far flung Jews began an active campaign to establish, in their eyes and the eyes of their neighbors, that Judaism was a far more moral system than the pagan religions. Their tracts were so successful that they led many pagans to consider converting to Judaism.

Grayzel’s statement is closer to your presentation than mine. Until I can find the other source (if I didn’t imagine it) I’ll have to back off on my statement.
carnivorousplant, the seven sacraments of the RCC fall into two general categories: those that celebrate life events and those that celebrate the forgiveness of God.

In the latter category is Reconciliation, in which the sinner acknowledges his/her sinfulness and asks to be reconciled to the Church and God. (In part, this is due to the community nature of the Church. A person who is “in sin” is less capable of accepting God’s grace or Spirit, and so is less able to come close to God and less able to bring God to others.) The other Sacrament of forgiveness is the celebration, in the mass and the Eucharist, of the redemptive act of Jesus in dying in sacrifice for all humanity.

In the former category are the principle moments of life: Baptism/birth, Confirmation/maturity, Marriage and Holy Orders/selection of the principal life paths, and Last Rites/death. I’m not sure what your question is regarding Last Rites. In recent years, it has been reconsidered as the sacrament for invoking blessings of God at any crisis of health and has begun to be called the Sacrament of the Sick. Even when known as Extreme Unction (i.e., final anointing), it was never held by the Church to be necessary for salvation (although some confused Catholics probably allowed that superstition into their personal belief).

52

Leah, thanks for the info. I guess that makes another difference between the two. Christianity was given the Great Commision by Jesus who instructed his disciples to actively seek out converts which later is translated for all to “witness” to non-believers, Judaism does not actively proselytize, and in fact discourages conversion at first.

I did, but I also am not sure of Jewish terminalogy and so I figured OT was safer, that and it’s more familiar to me. I don’t want to say it’s in the Torah thinking that is the Christian OT when it was actually somewhere else. I don’t believe anyone says it out of disrespect, and for myself it’s done out of ignorance. I’m still trying to decide if I should be typing things as God or G-d :slight_smile:

<Let me hijack my own OP here>
Tom, if the priest acts as intermidiary between the sinner and the body of Christ, why is it done in secret, anonomously. What benefit does that serve for the church as a whole? Seeing the repentance of the sinners as they do pennance? Also, who exactly is the intermidiary between man and God? I thought current RC teaching is that Mary acts as intermidiary for man and Jesus, while Jesus is intermidiary for man and God. Is the chain of confession man to priest to Mary to Jesus to God? Another thing that bothered me about the RC church, but that is simply a side note.
<Back to your regularl scheduled OP, thank you>

53

I had heard that a layperson could give the last rites if there was no priest available.
The principal of the Catholic high school I attended refused to come to the home of my Catholic friend’s father and give them when he died. We were really hacked at him…“He’s a priest for G-d’s sake, that’s what they DO.” Were we out of line?

54

Tom: I should probably add that my statement was what I was always under the impression of regarding confession and doctrines and such. It may sound like an attack of some sort (when I re-re-read it) but it most certainly not meant to be that.

55

The act of confession that occurs in the Sacrament of Reconciliation is the visible sign that the person is sorry for their sins. All sacraments are based on visible signs. The reason that the confession is done in private is to prevent the usual gossip and occasional worse reaction regarding the nature of the sins of the person. It is sufficient that the person perform the visible sign of speaking with the priest without adding the burden of announcing all his/her faults to the other parishoners–and having them be tempted to throw his faults in his face at a later meeting. The actual confession of specific sins is to aid the person to realize just what they are sorry for. The actual sign is the sorrow or repentance for the sin, not the grocery list of human foibles.

Forgiveness is between a person and God. Jesus is the only mediator between a person and the Father. The role of the priest is to provide the physical presence necessary for the (all important) sign that the person is reconciled with the Church. (This is akin to the notion of atonement mentioned by Chaim.)
Mary (and other saints) is a separate issue in which Catholics “pray to” (petition, not worship) a holy person to intercede on our behalf with God by “praying” (petition and worship) to God–similar to the idea of asking any member of your congregation to pray for you.

As to the pricipal (priest I presume?) who would not come to administer Last Rites: I dunno. Without knowing the actual set of events, I have no idea whether the principal was a jerk (hardly impossible) or whether he was not given a clear indication of the circumstances or whether he was trying to counsel some kid out of suicide and simply asked that the family try another priest at that moment. If the man had died the previous day, he might have not wanted to perpetuate the superstition of needing the final blessing to get into heaven. :::shrug::: If the family was asking while the man was near death, they certainly had a right to ask and I have no idea why any one would refuse.

56

CHAIM

So sorry for the misspellings. My eyes were reading English but my brain was seeing Hebrew. (Did you buy it? Did you, huh?)

This has been a really interesting discussion. Having said that, we should all go out and see Keeping the Faith which shows us that regardless of our religious beliefs, we are all simply just human.

57

CHAIM

So sorry for the misspellings. My eyes were reading English but my brain was seeing Hebrew. (Did you buy it? Did you, huh?)

This has been a really interesting discussion. Having said that, we should all go out and see Keeping the Faith which shows us that regardless of our religious beliefs, we are all simply just human.

58

CHAIM

So sorry for the misspellings. My eyes were reading English but my brain was seeing Hebrew. (Did you buy it? Did you, huh?)

This has been a really interesting discussion. Having said that, we should all go out and see Keeping the Faith which shows us that regardless of our religious beliefs, we are all simply just human.

59

CHAIM

So sorry for the misspellings. My eyes were reading English but my brain was seeing Hebrew. (Did you buy it? Did you, huh?)

This has been a really interesting discussion. Having said that, we should all go out and see Keeping the Faith which shows us that regardless of our religious beliefs, we are all simply just human.

60

It’s not easy to get the spelling of Chaim. My son’s name is Chaim and it took me a good year or so to stop spelling it “Chiam.”

Zev Steinhardt