Very ignorant Bible question. Apologizing in advance.

Hi,

Please be aware that the what I am about to ask is going to sound extremely ignorant…

The Jewish people do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and subsequently had him killed.

Jesus himself is Jewish and is referred to as Rabbi by the Jewish people.

Mary and Joseph themselves were devout Jews.

Christianity began after Jesus died and his disciples spread the word.

Modern Christianity (all denominations) worship Jesus as the savior.

But Jesus himself is Jewish, so therefore would have subscribed to Judaism.

So doesn’t that make Christianity a branch of Judaism?

It is extremely unlikely that “the Jewish people” had Jesus killed. It is more likely that Jesus was executed by the Romans (possibly with some interaction with some elements of the Jewish priesthood) as a threat to civil order. (Check out the Straight Dope Staff Report on Who killed Jesus? from 16-Jun-2002.)

You will find very few Jews who look upon Jesus as a rabbi–even in its looser meanings.

Aside from those points,

Early Christianity was very much a Jewish sect and, later a heretical or schismatic group breaking away from Judaism, but, ultimately, (when the number of Gentile converts grew large enough, admitting many non-Jewish beliefs, practices, rituals, etc. to Christianity), Christianity developed into a completely separate system of belief.

Amazingly, I was just considering this question a few hours ago as I looked at a family tree of Christian denominations.

Rather than a branch of Judaism, a better plant analogy for Christianity would be a new plantlet taking root at the end of a runner. At first they form a conjoined organism, but eventually the runner breaks and the two plants are definitively separated.

In the case of these two faiths, Christianity began as a sect within Judaism. While parts of it remained very much within the Jewish fold, especially the church in Jerusalem, more far-flung Christian communities had much more Gentile and less Jewish flavor.

The destruction of the temple in the year 70 broke the overlap. Christians tended to emphasize their differences from Judaism in the face of Roman persecution. Meanwhile, the diversity of Jewish denominations or schools of thought, made possible by prosperity centered in Jerusalem, took a big hit. There was no longer a wide murky continuum; you were either Jew or Gentile.

‘you were either Jew or Gentile.’
I thought Jew and Gentile referred to the same group of people.

Sorry for the ignorance

Don’t worry about it, Peppy. This is one of the few examples of the web as a learning tool. :wink:
But yes, Gentile means a non-Jew.

Christianity ceased being a part of Judaism in several steps. I don’t know that I could point to any one specific point in this continuum and say “That’s when they ceased being Jews” but by the time you come to the end of it, there is no question that Christianity was an entirely separate religion. The below is an oversimplification of the process, but it does highlight the major points of this continuum:

The first step would have to reside with the death of Jesus. His death (in traditional Jewish thought) quashed any claims that he could have been the messiah. In any event, believing in a dead messiah would not have placed you entirely outside Judaism (although the notion of a dead messiah is not within Judaism).

The next step was probably when Paul (and please correct me if I’m wrong) allowed for people to convert to Christianity without undergoing a traditional conversion ceremony, which includes circumcision for men. Without circumcision (for men), a conversion is invalid in Judaism. However, because the early Church leaders continued to allow people to belong to their “branch of Judaism” without a valid conversion, you had many people in the movement who were not halachically Jewish.

The last step came at the Council of Nicea in 325 where the dogma of the Trinity was adopted and much of the theological foundation of the new religion was laid. Once Jesus was deified as part of the Trinity, there was no question at all that the movement was completely out of Judaism.

Zev Steinhardt

And the next step (for believers) was when he rose from the dead. Kind of an important point to leave out.

In the Bible, the book of Acts talks of when non-Jews were also promised salvation if they accepted Jesus Christ as savoir and lord.

This was hard for some of the Jewish believers in Christ to accept but since it had the authority of the apostles they came around.

Sorry I don’t have chapter and verse but my binle is in my car. :o

Not necessarily. Believing that someone could rise from the dead is not out of the realm of normative Judaism. After all Elijah and Elisha both raised people from the dead. Ezekiel saw the dead rise in the Valley of the Dry Bones as well. The belief that Jesus rose from the dead does not necessarily place one outside Judaism. (That does not mean to say, however, that I believe that Jesus did rise from the dead).

Zev Steinhardt

It’s right on top of my Bible.

:smack:

Jesus and Paul both have something to say on this subject:

Paul had a little more to say. Even referencing back to Abraham who lived before the Mosaic Law Covenant.

So, Biblically, it seems that Abrahamic Covenant/Promise led to Law Covenant (early Judaism) which led to New Covenant (Christianity).

At issue here, I would suggest, is largely an issue of semantics.

Jesus was a Jew, and never appears to have given any indication in the Gospels that he regarded himself as having left his faith or of starting an entirely new one. As a previous poster noted, he spoke of himself as “fulfilling Scripture”. At various places in the Gospels he objects to strict adherance to Jews laws or customs but definitely does not say he is rejecting Judaism. An example is when he is challenged because he and his disciples do not ritually wash their hands before eating.

In the early days of the Church there was friction among Jewish and Gentile converts over the degree to which conventional Jewish customs needed to be preserved by believers; St. Paul discussed the issue of whether circumcision was still was required. I, for one, get the impression that he was writing as a Jew to people who were converting to a new Jewish movement.

Based on the same evidence and following pretty much the same logic, one can instead conclude that Christianity is a whole different religion which grew out of Judaism, or is a variant or extension of conventional Judaism.

In normal speech, most people imply the former: that Christianity and Judaism are altogether distinct. I’m a Catholic who grew up in a largely Jewish neighborhood. I never took a poll, and it wasn’t something we had cause to discuss much, but I recall knowing as a child that some of my Jewish neighbors regarded Jesus as a great rabbi or even a prophet. Still, as a matter of courtesy, I would never have referred to myself when speaking with them as a fellow Jew.

As for the latter view, that to be a Christian is to be a kind of Jew, some years ago I heard the novelist Andrew M. Greeley, who is a Roman Catholic priest, interviewed on a radio talk show. A caller who identified himself as Jewish said he was glad that Pope John Paul II referred to Jews as “our brothers in faith”. Greeley then remarked that when you came right down to it, Christianity is a Jewish faith. There are, of course, countless bigots–Christian and Jewish–who would object to that.

Religious terms are, in fact, awfully equivocal. There are Unitarians who say they are Christians and Unitarians–often in the same congregation–who say Unitarians are not. I knew a very nice and extremely well-educated woman who was a member of the Bahai faith who said she didn’t understand why a local Pentecostal minister had such animus against her people since, after all, they are Christians too.

As for the term Gentile, it’s standard meaning is a person who is not Jewish. On the other hand, among Mormons, it means a person who isn’t Jewish or Mormon. When the LDS Temple was opened in St. Louis, non-Mormons were permitted tours for a limited time. A friend of mine who is Jewish took the tour, and ended up as confused as heck by the way the guide was talking.

Believing that Jesus was a fine, upstanding human being is certainly fine. It’s kind of hard to argue with someone who urges you to love your neighbor. But I’m afraid that your Jewish neighbors were woefully uneducated about their own religion if they considered him a prophet.

Zev Steinhardt

I don’t understand, I’m a Christian, I’m not a bigot, and yet I disagree with that statement.

You could use the same logic to claim that Islam is a Jewish faith.
I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. The Savior. Jews do not, so they are not of my faith. I’m not talking hair-splitting doctrinal differences here, but a profound rejection (from my point-of-view I admit) of the core tenet of Christianity. If there is a disagreement with that, how can we be of the same faith? And, if I respectfully point that difference, how does that make me a bigot?

BMalion: I didn’t mean to suggest that anyone who disagreed with this point of view was necessarily a bigot; far from it. What I meant to say was something such as: “would disagree in outrage”.

It comes right down to this:

  1. The first generation Jewish Christians wanted to remain fully Jewish. However, they were radically changing certain fundamentals of Judaism, namely:[list=a][li]Insisting that the Messiah has already come. And instead of bringing the prophesied “Day of the Lord” when Israel would be restored and we’d have paradise on earth… he died, rose again, and is promising paradise in the afterlife.[/li][li]Ethnic non-Jews (i.e., Gentiles) can partake in the Messianic Age instituted by Jesus. They are not unclean anymore.[/li][li]Therefore, these Gentiles don’t need Circumcision.[/li][li]And they don’t need the totality of the Mosaic (‘of Moses’) Law. [/li][li]And neither do we need the totality of Mosaic Law. No more dietary restrictions.[/li][li]And Jesus’ interpretation of the Law trumps half a millenium of Rabbinical interpretation.[/li][/list=a] 2. This was too much for the Jewish Rabbis who inherited control of the faith when the priesthood was pretty much abolished (at least made inconsequential) with the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The Rabbis ex-communicated the Jewish Christians. {While some tolerated the Christian sect, others wanted them stoned for blasphemy.}

  2. The ex-communicated Jewish Christians soon became a minority in the Gentile Christian church and eventually, inconsequential. Without the totality of the Mosaic Law and without ethnic Jewishness, Gentile Christianity became de facto non-Jewish and a separate religion.

  3. Although… [list=a][li]It can be shown in Paul’s letter to the Romans that he regards the Jewish (i.e., Old {as in prior}) Covenant as still being a valid covenant (although he considers the New Covenant of Christ a better and perfected covenant).[/li][li]Both Christians and Jews agree that they both worship the one and same God. (Although Jews look suspiciously {and maybe rightly so at times} at trinitarian theology as being tritheistic).[/li][li]It is official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that the Jewish Covenant is still indeed a valid covenant for those who still follow it, and that they will find salvation in it (even though it is through Christ that the Jews will find salvation when they get to heaven – won’t they be surprised). This is in contradiction to fundamentalist Christians who insist that without an explicit profession in the Christ-hood and Lordship of Jesus, you ain’t gonna be saved. And this is why the Pope and the RCC get along with the Jews so much better than the rest of Christianity (although, right-wing nut jobs cozy up to zionist Jews because of their apocalyptic belief that the restoration of the Temple of Jerusalem will usher in the end days).[/list=a]5. Can the relationships be any more complex?[/li]
    Shalom.