May I direct you to
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/784575a4da2d1b51ca2569bb00164f7b!OpenDocument ?
In particular, towards the bottom
Whose ‘sky-high crime rate’ and ‘skyrocketing gun crime rate’ was that again?
A few thoughts on this thread:
I would have reacted exactly the same way to that situation, except for the looking for my gun part. I’m very glad you’re all right, Fallen Angel, and I hope the police turn something up.
I don’t own a gun. I have two children and I’m not convinced that it’s possible to store a gun in such a manner that it’s both accessible in an emergency and safely out of the hands of kids. Yes, my children are smart, and yes, if I did own a gun, I’d train them more thoroughly in gun safety, but I can think of far too many instances when smart children who know better do something foolish. I’d like that foolishness to be less than fatal, if possible.
I live in New Mexico, which has much the same attitude towards guns and their use as does Arizona. Most of the people I know who own handguns bought them for protection, took them home, and put them on a shelf or in a drawer. These are not responsible gun-owners, I know, but they’re everyday, ordinary people. I shudder to think any of them will take the notion that they need to bring their weapons along with them in the car.
I know that if guns weren’t available, people would turn to other weapons. I’d much rather face a knife, a club, or a rock than a gun.
“Hoplophobe”? Does this exist as a word at all outside of NRA circles? Are some chapters now providing psychiatric training along with gun safety and target shooting? Sorry, but I’m a word nut instead of a gun nut (obvious joke inserted for the purposes of lessening tension) and I get pretty het up about outrages like this.
I don’t own a gun. I’m willing to take my chances as an unarmed citizen who knows her neighbors rather than assume the responsibility that owning and storing a deadly weapon requires. However, as a First Amendment absolutist, I can’t in good conscience fault Second Amendment absolutists. I can only hope that all reasonable people who know the consequences of irresponsible gun use can come together in some sort of accord about making all gun owners and users more responsible.
Again, FA, the important thing is that you and the people who were around you are all right, and the larger issues about guns that are coming up have no bearing on that in any way. I doubt the cretins who were doing the shooting have the intellect to engage in a debate about guns anyway.
It looks like I’m reduced to fighting ignorance of how to read English. First, find an English teacher - that shouldn’t be too hard, since English was the native language in your former prison colony last time I checked. Then ask her whether the term ‘crime rate’ or the more specific term ‘gun crime rate’ have the same meaning as ‘murder rate’. Once you’ve done that, you could try looking at the CRIME RATES or GUN CRIME RATES for a change. Or you could just keep your head in the sand and take pride in your own ignorance, which is the usual course for your kind.
Not that I really expect you to do something as honest as to read the words that I wrote; hoplophobes like yourself generally can’t manage the basic intellectual honesty required for debate. Look at Bellisailes, for example - the man wrote a book that all of your gun-banning pals praised to high heaven (for example, those at the New York Times), yet it’s now being discovered that he claims to have used records that were destroyed in a fire, to have gotten records from places he’s never been, and that the whole premise of his book (that gun ownership was rare in early america was rare because guns rarely showed up in probate records) was false (applying his data to livestock, we’d discover that there were almost no cows and sheep owned back in those days too).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by InternetLegend *
I hope you don’t have a swimming pool, since more kids die every year from swimming pool accidents than gun accidents. I also hope you don’t keep unsecured food in the house, since more kids die every year by chocking on food than from gun accidents. I hope you don’t let them anywhere near a car, since far more people (including kids) die in car accidents than from any kind of gun incident. Or is this just you reveling in ignorance instead of making an actual assessment of the risks to your kids?
Oh yeah, because Vermont (which doesn’t require any sort of permit to carry a gun or anything other than the Federal checks to buy a gun) is so much more deadly than places like New York, California, or Washington DC where it’s either impossible or nearly so to get a permit to carry a weapon
What you should know is that even in gun-control utopian countries like the UK and Australia or utopian cities like NYC, Washington DC, and LA guns are available - They just aren’t available to anyone who follows the law. So, the choice isn’t between facing a knife, club, or rock instead of a gun, but between only allowing criminals to have guns or allowing both law-abiding citizens and criminals to have guns.
“Outrages”? Does homophobe (originally used only in gay circles) get you pretty het up too? How about ‘assault weapon’ (the ‘current’ meaning oringinally used only in brady-bunch circles)? Or do you only get ‘het up’ if the word comes from a group that you don’t like? Hoplophobe is certainly much more applicible to the gun-control crowd than either of the two words above are to their targets.
And hoplophobe has been around in psychiatric circles for a while, so it’s not even an invented or appropriated term.
So, you don’t own a car (big 'ol killer), knives (certainly a deadly weapon in any court I’m aware of), or any other potentially dangerous tools? See, that’s what’s always odd about people like you - I’m willing to bet you’d worry a lot more if one of your kids got into skeet shooting than if they got into football, despite the statistically verifiable fact that serious injury in death is far less likely in any shooting sport (OK, any legal shooting sport - I’ll conceede that Russian Roulette is a tad more fatal, but I’m not sure that it’s really a sprot) than in football. (Football accidents kill about twice as many kids a year at school as all causes from guns do).
Ah yes, of course the old ‘more responsible’ line. I’ll tell you what, why don’t you work on getting automobile, swimming pool, football stadium, and food owners up to the same level of responsibility as gunowners before you start trying to reach ‘some sort of accord’ which will inevitably involve infringing the freedoms of gunowners.
The swipe against Australia for being a former prison colony was about on the same par as the (possibly) made-up word “hoplophobe.” FTR: part of the United States was also a prison colony. Go learn some history and you’ll discover which part.
Oh my god, someone took a swipe at someone in the Pit! Stop the presses!!11!!!1!!
My, my. Why am I not suprised that a hoplophobe doesn’t like having an accurate description of his pathology posted? It is a real word, and I’m interested in why you think it’s wrong to begin using a specifc, preexisting word which describes your psychological problems perfectly. Especially when you don’t seem to rail against other uses of uncommon words, or against the invention/misappropriation of words like ‘homophobe’ or ‘assault weapon’.
And exactly where did I say I feared guns.
BTW, care to post your qualifications as a psychologist?
Or, on a more realistic note, the statistical likelihood of being the victim of a gun-related crime in the Pheonix, AZ metro area? Be sure to contrast these with the statistical likelihoods of the other undesirable events mentioned in this thread and if the gun-nuts, er, “hoplophiles” concerned have taken any courses (taught by certified instructors) in defensive driving, food preparation, or life-saving.
Regarding your assertion that guns aren’t available to anyone who follows the law in Los Angeles, please contact any one of the at least 20 gunshops operating currently in the Los Angeles, California, area.
Geez, FallenAngel, I drive that stretch of freeway every single day. (Apparently, I don’t work far from you - I’m at Dunlap & 25th Ave.) It’s more than a little unnerving to me that other people are out there shooting willy-nilly. You, however, acted admirably. Glad you’re all right.
Arizona (and, I suppose, New Mexico) are the last bastions of the Old West. Gun laws are looser here. But most of the gun owners I know act every bit as responsibly as FallenAngel did (and does). Considering that Phoenix is the 6th largest city in the U.S., we don’t really have that much gun-related crime. Not a complete absence, obviously, but less than you’d think.
InternetLegend, thanks for a polite and well-reasoned post. Even though this is the Pit, it’s nice to see a little rhetorical courtesy.
Hoplophobia is a legitimate word that has indeed made its way into the annals of clinical psychology. However, it IS pretty prevalent among the pro-Second Amendment groups because (to the best of my knowledge - if anyone knows otherwise, feel free to correct me) it was coined many years ago by Col. Jeff Cooper, who is one of our leading advocates.
Lastly, you state yourself to be a First Amendment absolutist. That’s both good and admirable, and where I stated out several years ago. Over time, however, I came to realize (YMMV) that the only way to guarantee absolute rights under one of the articles of the Bill of Rights, was to strive for absolute rights under ALL of them.
In terms of idealism, I’m openly an anarchist. In terms of realism, however, I would be perfectly content to see the Bill of Rights enforced under absolute terms. Wasn’t it Justice Douglas who said, “To me, ‘No law abridging’ means no law abridging.”
Lastly, there’s a variation on a old saying I’d like to leave you with that popped into my mind when I read your post: “My enemy’s enemy is not my enemy.” Take care.
Cite?
Plus, I’m still waiting an answer from Riboflavin.
jesus christ, riboflavin, wipe the foam off of your mouth.
freak.
And exactly where did I say you said you feared guns? Oh, more basic English problems from the hoplophobe crowd.
They’re certainly better than your qualifications as a lawyer, as evinced by your earlier posts on Arizona law.
That’s a pretty damn incoherent mess of words; I can’t even figure out what you’re trying to say, or how it relates to anything in the discussion. I suspect that this word salad was brought about by the trauma induced by how close to home my diagnosis of your psychological problems hit. Or it could just be your general problems with English striking again, I’m really not sure.
Let me guess - your English class in 3rd grade featured a story in which someone used a gun, and the trauma led to you never attend another class, resulting in the sad state of your reading comprehension today?
essvee:
It’s not foam. It’s merely drool.
Oh, my God, I’m in the Pit! Whoops.
Thank you, though, and like I said, because I’m an absolutist about one Amendment, I wouldn’t feel reasonable condemning anyone else’s absolutism about others. It’s the damn gray areas that get us all fighting, you know.
And just for the record, Riboflavin, before you start ranting at me some more, no, I don’t own a swimming pool, in large part because I don’t want to take the responsibility for seeing to it that my kids or anyone else’s don’t drown in it; when my children were of an age to be in serious danger of choking on foods, I was careful to cut round foods to lessen the chance of that; and I do own and operate a car, but my children and I (and any other people in the car) have always used the appropriate restraints. You didn’t mention it, but since my children and their friends are reaching the age where they’re likely to start experimenting, I also keep the liquor locked up. We each have our own levels of comfort with the various risks in our immediate environments. I never suggested that YOU shouldn’t own a gun; I only expressed my own personal feelings about owning one myself.
I have no opinion about “assault weapons,” since I don’t have the necessary knowledge about firearms to have formed one. And I think “homophobe” is a great word just because it pisses off the very people it was designed to piss off. We’re all pretty familiar with the prefix “homo” in this society, but I just don’t think “hoplo” can elicit that kneejerk reaction in the crowd you’d like it to rattle. Sorry.
So…can I leave the Pit quietly now, or will everyone think I’m a pacifist sissy if I refuse to fight anymore? 
Oh, and by the way, I’m still really happy that you didn’t get shot, Fallen Angel. And I don’t care WHO knows it. 
And that shows it’s in the “annals of Clinical Psychology” exactly how, Astro?
Oh, that’s right. It doesn’t.
Somehow, being called a freak by someone who wants to have sex with a she-male just kind of loses its impact.
InternetLegend,
I pointed out that your fears did not appear to be based on a rational analysis of the risks involved. You can call that ‘ranting’ if you want, but it looks more like a reasoned argument to me. While you appear to have done a significantly better risk assessment than many people do, there are still points of obvious irrationality which I listed, though you don’t want to go on with it so I’m not going to try to point-by-point anything.
‘Hoplophobe’ seems to do an excellent job of pissing off the hoplophobes, as evinced by Monty’s barely-coherent ramblings, so it should be just as valid as ‘homophobe’ under your reasoning. Actually it should be more valid, since the operative emotion hoplophobes generally show really is fear, not hatred as in the case of homophobes.
man, ribo, youre pulling out ALL the stops, arent you.
how do you type while wearing a strait jacket, anyway?