A short poll for theists and atheists.

In My Humble Opinion
1

1a Theist: Do you think most atheists wish there were a [n all powerfull and Good] God?

1b Atheist: Do you wish so?

2a Theist: What are your feelings about people who are convinced they won’t burn in hell because there is no such place? (Assume their belief is as strong as your belief that there is such a place)

2b Atheist: What, in your opinion, happens to that thing we call a ‘soul’ after our body dies? If anything? How can you comprehend how it might ‘feel’ to die?

3a Theist: What is your imagination of what heaven is like? How does heaven deal with the human tendency to normalize all forms of pleasure? (how does heaven deal with the phenomenon whereby the novelty of all good things wear of f. If heaven is eternal)

3b Atheist: What do you think of far-eastern religions such as Buddhism which (as far as my knowledge takes me) don’t believe in a God, but do believe in something after death, and also believe of an alternative to this existence.

4a Theist: Give me your opinion of the Phelps family.

4b Atheist: Give me your opinions of Darwin and Dawkins.

Feel free to add your own poll questions for subsequent posters to answer.

edit: If there is any offence taken to anything someone says or any chance of a hijack PLEEEEEZ take it to the pit and leave this thread intact. I want this only to be an excercise in pure curiosity between good-natured theists and good-natured atheists.

PLEEZ

2

Theist speaking:

1a) Don’t know, don’t care.
2a) To each his own.
3a) A completely different type of “pleasure” (I’d prefer Joy) divorced and separate from anything we might be able to relate or compare it to on Earth. Like God, beyond comprehension.
4a) Thoroughly Detestable and wholly Unchristian.

3

Atheist here.

1b. Sure, it would be great if there were an all powerful and good God. I’m thoroughly convinced there isn’t, though.

2b. Well, I don’t think there is such a thing as a soul, as I understand the concept. I’ve never died, but I imagine the feelings depend on the manner of death. It could be incredibly painful, or it could be like going to sleep.

3b. Some of what people believe is sensible, and some of what people believe is loopy, whether they be Western religious, Eastern religious, atheists, or what have you. If you toss me a specific belief, I can comment on it, but other than that, it’s hard. Is there something after death? Well, sure, people have died and the universe has kept on trucking. Is there something in the way of conscious experiences for me after my death? No, I don’t think so, and if you believe otherwise, whether it’s because of this religion, that religion, or some other reason, I think you’re wrong on this point.

I guess I would have to say that my acquaintance with Eastern religion is such that I’m not really buying it (otherwise, I’d be, well, a follower of an Eastern religion).

4b. Well, I’ve no acquaintance with Darwin as a personality or anything, never had lunch with him or had any idea what it would be like to have lunch with him, but since you seem to be wanting to posit him as the analogue of Phelps… what the fuck? What has Darwin ever done that could be seen as analogous? Dawkins is more understandably confrontational, but I have no real problem with him either. But I can see why some theists would; he can be very offputting in the way he speaks about theism. But Darwin? Darwin’s just a scientist who happened to come up with some conclusions that many religious people didn’t like. But he was far from an ass about it. There’s no sensible reason I can think of to dislike Darwin the man; you can disagree with his conclusions if you want, but it’s misguided to project that into some sort of hatred of the man himself.

4

I’d like to add to my own list…

Atheist: How do you respect a loved-one when he or she dies? I ask because My step-father died last year. Logically I know he’s gone and therefore not capable of witnessing the gestures of repsect those that outlived him feel compelled to undertake (myself included) And it’s not possible for him to ‘feel proud’ or ‘glad’ of any good I do. But I still feel like it’s right to, for example, visit his grave and refresh the flowers there.

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1b - Nope, not at all.

2b - don’t believe in a “soul” or analgous organ/spirit/whatever. Don’t think the brain evolved to consider it’s own non-existence, so other than the practical side of physical death, the question is meaningless to me. The thought of “how will I feel when I no longer exist” is toozen for me.

3b - I have no problem with anyone believing what they want to believe as long as they don’t try to require me to believe or coerce me into acting like I do to save my life.

4b - I respect what I know of them and enjoy reading what they have written. I expect they would be interesting to have over for dinner (assuming Mr. Darwin was still alive, of course).

6

It’s perfectly right to do so, for your own peace of mind, as a reflection of your own respect or love for the man. He’s not going to feel any differently about it either way, of course, since he’s not going to be feeling anything anymore, but you’re not really doing it for him so directly. At most, he may have taken comfort during his lifetime in the thought that his legacy would be respected after his death.

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Quoted bits in italics.

1a Theist: Do you think most atheists wish there were a [n all powerfull and Good] God?

I don’t know about most, but I imagine there are some who wouldn’t mind such a deity.
*
2a Theist: What are your feelings about people who are convinced they won’t burn in hell because there is no such place? (Assume their belief is as strong as your belief that there is such a place)*

So long as a person is a decent human being, I’m not really bothered one way or another what he or she believes. If someone is going around killing/raping/not-citing-outrageous-claims and justifying it by saying that it doesn’t matter because there isn’t any eternal consequences, well, I probably still wouldn’t care what the person believed, but I would like the person a lot less.

3a Theist: What is your imagination of what heaven is like? How does heaven deal with the human tendency to normalize all forms of pleasure? (how does heaven deal with the phenomenon whereby the novelty of all good things wear of f. If heaven is eternal)

I have no clue, but this is a question I’ve contemplated before. Logically, Heaven doesn’t really make sense to me for the very reason you stated. Usually, when I get on this train of thought, I figure that the idea of Heaven is outside of total human comprehension. Cop out answer? Yup! I’m Christian; we’re good at those.

4a Theist: Give me your opinion of the Phelps family.

They scare the shit out of me. Please don’t judge all theists based on the Phelps family. While aethiests may consider our belief in a god (or gods) irrational, we aren’t all that crazy.

Feel free to add your own poll questions for subsequent posters to answer.*

I’d like to know what flavor of theists people who answer the part a’s are. I’m Roman Catholic.

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No, I don’t think that, but its possible. I do not know most atheists nor a large enough cross section to accurately judge.

Hell is a theological concept from a particular religion.

Perfect order. The human tendency to normalize all forms of pleasure is irrelevant as the freedom to do evil is relinquished. What you describe are properties of the world, not properties of Heaven. Heaven is intrinsically pleasurable to those who seek its harmony.

Fred Phelps is a bigotted jackass.

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1b. Unanswerable as stated. Would it be “good” as I see fit, or “good” as God sees fit?
2b. What is a soul?
3b. There’s as much evidence for that as there is for any other religious concept, so I don’t think about it at all.
4b. Darwin was a scientist and scholar with an open mind. Dawkins is a scientist and scholar with an open mind and a beautiful wife(Lalla Ward).

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I rather suspect almost everyone on this board will feel Phelps to be despicable and Darwin to be a fine fellow, so the only point of contention in your question 4. will be on Dawkins.

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Theist (Catholic):

1a - I’ve never really thought about what atheists might think on the question.
2a - Pretty much ditto. I believe that we’ll all have to give an account of ourselves.
3a - I don’t think there’s any point in trying to imagine what heaven’s like. It’s enough to know that it will be eternal and absolute happiness.
4a - I don’t know who the Phelps family are.

12

Atheist, here:

1b: I suppose, although it would obviously depend on which God you’re talking about. I wouldn’t mind eternal life with Polycarp’s God. I’d rather have oblivion than put up with Jerry Falwell’s.

2b: I don’t believe that there’s any such thing as a soul. Who we are, as people, is nothing more than an indescribably complex series of chemical reactions. When those reactions end, so do we. No one asks where the flame goes when you blow out the match.

As to what dying feels like, I imagine it varies depending on how you die.

3b: I don’t see any particular difference between believing in reincarnation and believing in resurrection.

4b: Darwin is one of the most influential scientists of… well, ever, I suppose. I have enormous respect for him. Dawkins I know chiefly through his supporters on this board, which has led to a less than rosy view of him. But, it’s not fair for me to condemn the man without actually having read his work first hand, so I can’t say more than that about him.

13

If it helps: I never have. And I doubt most atheists do. I consider the Phelps’ to be beyond comprehension. I have trouble understanding them.

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1a Theist: Do you think most atheists wish there were a [n all powerfull and Good] God?
Nope.

2a Theist: What are your feelings about people who are convinced they won’t burn in hell because there is no such place? (Assume their belief is as strong as your belief that there is such a place)
I think they’re right - I don’t believe in Hell, either (except for the one we create for ourselves, here on Earth).
3a Theist: What is your imagination of what heaven is like? How does heaven deal with the human tendency to normalize all forms of pleasure? (how does heaven deal with the phenomenon whereby the novelty of all good things wear of f. If heaven is eternal)
I don’t believe in Heaven, either (except for our capacity to create nirvana here on Earth).
4a Theist: Give me your opinion of the Phelps family.
I don’t know much about them, but based on what I’ve read here they’re beneath contempt.

15

I’m not quite sure exactly how the poll works…but…

No, I have no particular interest in having an all-powerful God. I don’t wish that there was, and by definition I don’t wish that there wasn’t.
When we die, we die. Nothing lives on. Anything we call a ‘soul’ is a construct of the living.

Budhism - Don’t know enough to say in detail, but reincarnation is just another form of self-delusion.

Darwin and Dawkins - I don’t know enough about either to give any particular opinion. I don’t see why this is an atheist-specific question, or why we are expected to have an answer.

Added question - dead people see nothing. The close friends who have died are dead. (I’m fortunate enough to not (yet) have had close relatives die). In their lives, they have had an influence on who we are, and what we became. This will of course affect what we do in the future. That was their influence, not anything from beyond the grave.

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The existence of an all-powerful, all-good being would tend to mean that free will doesn’t exist… so, not really. I kinda like having choices.

That said, if I found sufficient evidence for god’s existence, I’d want to have words with him for quite a few things, like wars in his name and the irritating design flaw which makes us sunburn.

If by “soul”, you mean self-awareness or consciousness, I’m fairly certain dying is just a cessation of that consciousness. Kinda like going to sleep, and not dreaming.

I want to believe in the concept of quantum immortality, which would mean that each one of us, individually in our own alternate universes, is immortal. This is mostly wishful thinking, however, and the only way to test it is to try to kill yourself… so I’m going to just live my life as if QI doesn’t really happen. :slight_smile:

I think it’s fairly dippy, what with all the sitting and the meditation, but as far as religions go, it’s harmless. I don’t believe there’ve been any Buddhist-inspired wars, for example. My parents-in-law are Buddhist, and I think their ceremonies are just… weird.

Darwin- fairly smart guy. Not the end-all, be-all of evolution, but he had some good ideas that got the concept rolling.

Dawkins- I’ve only seen him on TV and read interviews with him, but I’d love to have dinner with this guy. Seems smart, and is certainly willing to use his notoriety to rip theism a new one. Maybe a bit too focused, but I’m glad someone’s calling theists out, and I’m glad he seems up to the task.

17

Apatheist. Not being a smartass; I really, really don’t care one way or the other about god.

1b. I can’t answer this question, for the reasons stated by Czarcasm.

2b. I’m unable to find any reason to think there is such a thing as a soul. I have a reasonable idea of how it feels to die because I held my mother’s hand as her system ground to a halt.

3b. I don’t think about them at all. Some people desire to believe whatever makes them happy, or their existence more tolerable, or both… and more power to them if it works for them.

4b. Darwin was a scientist. I have no idea who Dawkins is.

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1a Theist: Do you think most atheists wish there were a [n all powerful and Good] God?

Nope. If they wished it, they’d be agnostic or theists, wouldn’t they? I’ve never heard a sincere non-believer lament “if only there really was a God!” nor do I ever expect to.

2a Theist: What are your feelings about people who are convinced they won’t burn in hell because there is no such place?

Uh, not all Christians sects believe people go to hell. I don’t believe it myself. (in a nutshell: only the devil is destined for hell. bad people don’t go to heaven, but they’re not eternally tormented. they just cease to exist after judgment day.) Obviously I don’t think badly of them for not believing something I also don’t. I’m also unconcerned about the state of their souls because I believe that atheists who live as moral people will go to heaven - even if being good doesn’t gain you entrance to heaven as some propose, and it’s entirely based on belief, if God exists only the most profanely stubborn will be able to deny he exists when they personally confront him for their judgment.

3a Theist: What is your imagination of what heaven is like? How does heaven deal with the human tendency to normalize all forms of pleasure? (how does heaven deal with the phenomenon whereby the novelty of all good things wear of f. If heaven is eternal)

I’ll be honest with you, I don’t really have an ideal image of heaven. I know there are theists who could describe what waits the Just in loving detail, but my mind doesn’t work that way. Heaven is a place where all of one’s burdens are laid aside, and therefore it’s good. Peace does sound kind of boring, though, but I’m sure if heaven exists we’ll appreciate if it’s our final destination. I don’t think we’ll be the same base creatures we are now, so our current wants won’t color our perceptions.

4a Theist: Give me your opinion of the Phelps family.

Who? Seriously, I’ve heard the name on the boards, but know nothing about them. I don’t seek out the ravings of random religious people, sorry.

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as an Athiest, why would i want to wish for a god, i see no scientific evidence to support the existence of such an entity

nothing, once you’re dead, you’re dead, no Afterlife, no Damnation, what’s important is how you live your life now

Well, given the Law of Conservation of Energy (matter can never truly be destroyed, just changed to a different form), it would explain what happens with the Human conciousness/“soul” if you will, it’s a measurable energy field, it simply retransitions into another form

Even though I’m an athiest, i’ll answer this one, they’re utter scum, the worst example of humanity, the whole phelps clan (their name does not deserve the respect of capitalization) is living proof of the scumminess of Humanity, they have no redeeming traits and should be (to quote the Cybermen) Deleted!

Darwin; incredibly smart man, a great boon for Science and logical thinking
Dawkins; similar to Darwin, but he can be a tad abrasive in his religion-bashing, even if i do agree with him, calling people idiots for believing in the “Invisible Sky Pixie” isn’t the best way to get them thinking logically, it causes them to throw up their defenses and ignore his ideas

besides, we all know that the Holy Burrito™ is the One True Deity, right :wink:

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20

As a fellow atheist, let me say that this analogy is absolutely brilliant. I’ve been trying to come up with an intuitive way to say that it’s not logically necessary that our ‘self’ has some concrete manifestation outside the workings of our body/brain. This is it!

As for the poll…

I have a hard time addressing the question – it’s like saying ‘do you wish up were down?’ It would be a universe so different from our own that it would be beyond comprehension.

Do I wish the world were constructed as theists see it? While this obviously emcompasses a lot of possible universes, my answer would nonetheless be a blanket ‘no’. I adore the natural world and would be quite disappointed to find that it was all a creation of some higher being.

See ‘match analogy’ above.

More benign than the Jewish-Christian-Muslim family of religions but still totally uninteresting and, like all irrational thought patterns, counter-productive for the well-being of mankind.

Darwin was one of the greatest geniuses to ever have lived. A combination of penetrating observational habits and profound originality of thought. Dawkins, well I also have relatively superficial knowledge of him, and while I think he goes overboard I have to say I’m glad someone’s willing to disturb that snakes’ nest that is organized religion.