You misunderstand the “no True Scotsman” fallacy. Nobody is denying that they were humans or cliaimg they are of another species. The epithet “monster” is used to denote that the deeds of the brothers Hussein put them on a far different moral plane than the one inhabited by you and me. Well, by me, at any rate.
I don’t know about you, but I’m not a rapist, nor do I have any desire to be one. I am not a murderer, nor do I wish to be one. I do not molest children, I do not shove guns into women’s vaginas. I do not make parents watch as I torture and mutilate their children. I do not execute or torture athletes for missing goals.
The brothers Hussein were depraved monsters who had lost their souls years ago, if they ever possessed souls in the first place.
It was totally directed at Jarbaby to show her the inference of the quoted statement in that post.
It’s immoral to feel anything other than relief and satisfaction at the deaths of Uday and Qusay. I have no desire to whip out my dick and piss on their corpses, but neither do I wish to indulge pious blather about their wasted lives and their human dimensions. They didn’t have good sides, they had not one positive attribute. They were not tragic figures who were sadly misled. They were scum who got what they deserved, period.
I guess will agree to disagree, gobear. You seem to be consistently mentioning that I ‘regret’, ‘lament’ or ‘sympathize’ with the brothers, which I’ve bolded, Capitalized and repeated forty times that I do not. They are dead, and the world will no longer suffer their tortures. The people of Iraq and indeed the world have one less thing to worry about.
Does the death of Uday and Qusay cause me to raise a beer, laugh raucously, and compile witty OPs of ‘sympathy cards’ (snicker snicker) as a result? No.
And I said in the original post about Schindler’s List that I AM INCREDIBLY NAIVE. All my life I’ve believed (and hoped) that even the most evil of people can be rehabilitated and start anew.
You said:
I agree. So why is this cause for what the OP referred to as “great pleasure”? For me, I weep whenever anyone turns into a monster when their lives could have been so much more.
And again, spare your tears. These clowns weren’t tragic protagonists who fell from grace into sin, as if they were Macbeth or even Milton’s Satan. They were evil, murderous scum who even as children were bullies and torturers of animals.
And after your “I weep” bit, I can’t take this
very seriously.
“Why, man, they did make love to this employment;
They are not near my conscience; their defeat
Does by their own insinuation grow”
–Hamlet, V:ii, 57-58.
I understand the “No True Scotsman” fallacy just fucking fine, thanks, and Weirddave was guilty of it when he said that we “reaffirm our humanity” when we classify ourselves differently from the worst examples of humanity. If I may become a Nike commercial for a second:
“I am Uday Hussein”
“I am Idi Amin”
“I am Strom Thurmond”
I may not like it, but I am. And so are you, whether you personally committed atrocities or not. I know you want to believe I’m saying we’re all on the same “moral plane” as these people (whatever the Jesus Christ that means) but that’s your strawman. I’m not saying that, and neither is jarbabyj. I’m saying that the way I feel most comfortable reacting to the death of an evil person is to reflect on the fact that these were no more than human beings, just like the ones I see every day. And that any one of them, including myself, under different circumstances, might be led down the path of unspeakable evil. And - I wouldn’t feel the need to say this if it weren’t for your enthusiasm for accusing people of being apologists for evil - that we still need to be vigilant against these aspects of humanity, wherever they occur.
And this
Very nice. I submit that the reverse is also true - I’m also not a rapist, murderer, or child molester, but I don’t know about you either.
Jesus Christ. Please show one place in this thread, or any thread, for that matter, where I said that the two individuals in question were not human beings.
If you can’t do that, tear down your straw man and shut up.
If you’re so fucking “INCREDIBLY NAIVE” would you please try and stop yourself from any attempts at adult and logical reasoning?
As to Jesus’ teachings, I personally view “Do unto others …” as his most fundamental of all. Why?
IT IS BECAUSE THIS SAME CONCEPT APPEARS IN NEARLY EVERY OTHER RELIGION AND CULTURE ON THE FACE OF THIS ENTIRE PLANET.
As I said, had I spent a lifetime of maiming, raping and torturing people I would not hope for a single shred of mercy. What I would expect is to have my head blown off and that people would dance on my grave singing “Hallelujah!” Trying to lecture me on how I am so mean and nasty for rejoicing that some disgusting filth got exactly what I would hope to get in the same situation just doesn’t have a lot of moral impact on me right now.
This world is a better place without these scum bags.
That which makes this world a better place gives me great joy.
I feel great joy that this world has been improved one notch more by Odai and Qusai Hussein getting blown to shreds. Calling the soldiers who relieved them of their earthly travails “murderers” is a slap in the face to every person who has fought or died for our country.
Hey Zenster, thanks for skipping over the part where I apologized for using the word “murder”, oh but then you wouldn’t be able to stand on your 50 mile high horse.
Have your party and pleasure and hilarious jokes celebrating death and destruction, I’ll just be breathing a quiet sigh of relief that their terrors are over, and hoping for a quick resolution for all of this unrest and ugliness. I guess that’s not enough.
And gobear, I didn’t say I was “weeping” for their deaths, I said I was weeping for whenever someone loses their soul or humanity.
This is a total misreprensation of what Zenster is saying. He is happy and takes joy in the fact that these two monsters no longer share the same air on this planet as he does. He is not * celebrating death and destruction*, quite the opposite. He seems to be satisifed that these two arbitrators of death and destruction, these purveyors of suffering and manufacturers of ruined lives are dead.
Your remarks on the other hand imply that those of us who rejoice in these bastards being put down are barbaric and savage. This strikes me as being both silly and sad.
Odai and Qusai Hussein were murderers and sadists. Certainly the world is better off without them having the power to commit said acts. For these terrible crimes, they should be punished.
They chose to get into a gunfight with a superior opponent, and they paid the ultimate price of death for that choice. It’s a war, and people die in wars. Certainly it’s a big strategic victory when a major player in the opponent’s Army is killed or captured. This worked out to the advantage of the coalition.
However, that need not mean that we celebrate the deaths of these two men. I would, personally, rather have seen them tried and imprisoned for the rest of their lives. I can be satisfied that the Iraqi people (and the world) are better off without them without being happy that two human beings are dead.
Call me a bleeding heart liberal or whatever if you want, but don’t equate lack of cartwheels and party-poppers for the death of Odai and Qusai Hussein with being unpatriotic.
Jar, Odai’s and Qusai’s “terrors” aren’t over. It’s exactly this sort of bleeding heart inanity that is getting people all over you like a bad suit.
These two sick fucks never felt a bit of “terror” as they took out their cruelty and viciousness on whatever girl, woman, child or helpless prisoner suited their fancy. It’s also extremely hard to feel as though they “lost” their humanity. Most likely, they may have had twinges of conscience while maiming their victims. Did they let it stop them or cause some sort of turnaround in their hearts? No it did not. While Saddam may have fostered some habit of evildoing during their childhood, they gleefully indulged in it long after they knew it was wrong.
They did not “lose” their humanity, they happily threw it overboard in an orgy of bloodlust and murder.
I’ll apologize for taking you to task about the “murderer” comment, seeing as how you did clearly retract it. I’ll also agree with you that we should all hope “for a quick resolution for all of this unrest and ugliness.” Yes, that is enough. But please, enough bemoaning the fate of these two serial murderers. They did wrong, they knew it was wrong, and they kept on doing it anyway. Killing these maggots was an act of kindness to all involved, especially in comparison to letting them continue on their path of depravity.
Let’s all hope these two scum balls felt at least one moment’s “terror” when they saw the TOW’s exhaust plume as it launched off the rail of that helo.
No, lieu, Jesus would have brought you into a few more of these threads earlier, for some more comic relief. We’ve had some damned funny quips but we need more.
Don’t let me catch you shirking your duties again.
Thank you very much, Creative_Munster. It seems as though you are one of the few people here who is able to perfectly understand the proper context of my OP. You are my hero for the day.
Welcome to Cranky’s Humble Pie Cafe. I’ve got permanent seating for myself here; you’re welcome to stay for just a slice.
The foundation of this here eatery is the painful realization that when everyone misconstrues what I am saying, it is time to lay some blame at my own feet. I am sometimes (okay, fuck it, let’s be honest, often) not as clear as I think I am, and I make it easy for people to miss what I meant to write, and even to take my words the wrong way.
True enough, sometimes other posters are not careful in their reading, and a few are so itching for a fight that they’ll deliberately misread the meaning. But it’s a fair bet that when nearly everyone fails to perfectly understand me, I’ve fucked up somehow.
The alternative, of course, is that everyone is an idiot and thereby incapable of understanding my perfectly-expressed, unfailingly-logical, brilliantly-written argument. I don’t think I want to call a vote on how likely that is.
You want lemon meringue or sour cherry? I’ve got crow on the menu, but it’s not warranted in this thread.
While I would certainly agree that he is not celebrating death and destruction in general, he is clearly celebrating these specific deaths. Just like Jesus would have done*.
Cranky, I don’t see where you need to be serving yourself any pie at all. Your appreciation for lieu’s humor is exactly the ticket for this overblown trainwreck. I want this thread to continue solely for its entertainment value.
I apologize to Zenster for all of the bruhaha, but for the last time, I’m not bemoaning or regreting or lamenting or sympathizing or weeping for THE DEATH OF UDAY AND QUSAY HUSSEIN. It is the only way their lives could have ended, as far as I can tell, with their history of violence and terror. THE ONLY WAY.
But on page three Zenster mentioned dancing on their grave and shouting hallelujah, and that strikes me as “raucous partying” (not on my personal scale of parties but in terms of reacting to death).
I apologize for dragging down your thread Zenster. Carry on.