I don’t think it’s exaggerating in the slightest to say that Uday and Qusay exceeded even the seven times seven thing. Why is that so hard to understand? They weren’t just ‘bad examples of humanity’ who needed more hugs; they were vile. Sorry that war in Iraq precludes things like white gloves and the proper etiquette of hanky use, but these guys were offered an opportunity to surrender, and they rejected it.
Cry me a river. It’s the people of Iraq who need the sympathy, for all the anguish and cruelty these two scumballs inflicted.
War is not murder, so you may wish to rephrase your remarks. Uday and Qusai were killed in a military action. If you are calling US soldiers attempting to apprehend criminals “murderers,” you and I are going to have words.
Frankly, I am disgusted by the handwringing I see here. Those two were brutal rapists and murderers who richly deserved their fate. How can you lament the deaths of men who tortured, mimed, raped, and killed so many innocent people? Should we have held our fire and enabled them to escape? Would you prefer US soldiers to die if Uday and Qusai might live? Would you let them escape knowing that you would be sentencing more people to be their victims?
Wait, wait, let me get this straight. You start in with how my posts in this thread are the “best examples of bullshit” in the thread, and then get upset when I call you on the tripe you’re posting? Nice, very nice. Maybe you can get your mom to call my mom because I’m being mean to you and I should stop.
As for thanking you for playing, your analysis of “human nature” is a very immature one. It’s cute. Like a 7 year old girl playing dress up in her mommy’s clothing, I acknowledged that what you had posted was “very nice, dear”. Now run along and let the grownups have their big people time.
Insofar as the death of these two may bring the day where Iraq is a just and free country a little closer, I am happy. Insofar as two lives have been lost, I am unhappy.
It’s apparent that you see no difference between the torturers and their victims. I find your sympathy for those two monsters to be utterly mystifying.
And if you thought Amon Goethe was a good Nazi, you really didn’t understand that movie. When an SS officer shoots people for sport, it isn’t because he’s just a misguided soul with a heart of gold.
I think you are confusing what has been said. Discomfort at jubilance over their deaths is not the same as advocating their escape, or suggesting that U.S. soldiers should have held their fire.
I for one am relieved they are dead. I don’t think people like that are much good to the world alive. It’s a sad fact that the world is a better place when certain evil people are in their graves. However, I wouldn’t choose to celebrate their death raucously.
I can’t believe you think such ideas mean that we see “no difference between torturers and their victims.” Absurd. You don’t seem to do well with finer shades of meaning, and it’s a goddamn pity because it really waters down your valuable contributions.
Good LORD, gobear, did you miss the big fucking rolleyes at the end of my post? I THOUGHT (I HOPED) Amon Goethe would turn good after the “i pardon you” scene. It was devastating to me when he turned back to his old ways. It is SAD and FRUSTRATING when people choose darkness.
And I apologize, murder WAS the wrong word. I should have previewed better.
Let me be clear. I have never ONCE expressed sympathy for Uday and Qusay. We reap what we sow. There is frankly, in my mind, no other way their horrid lives could have ended. BUT, it’s not a happy situation that I take “pleasure in” like the OP said.
The people of Iraq deserve sympathy, and they definitely get it from me. What they will not see is me dancing around making jokes about this military action.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan *
I think you are confusing what has been said. Discomfort at jubilance over their deaths is not the same as advocating their escape, or suggesting that U.S. soldiers should have held their fire.
Who here is celebrating raucously (and my kegger suggestion was meant to be facetious)? The many posters here are agreeing that the world is a better place now that those two are dead; they have merely omitted the pious handwringing.
Ahem.
Jarbaby wrote
A. She’s minimizing Uday and Qusay’s actions as merely “wrong.” “Wrong” is telling a lie or not signalling during a lane change. Their lives and actions were evil, something you and she fail to grasp. Raping and killing women, murdering their husbands, raping children, torturing prisoners deserve stronger condemnation than merely being “wrong.”
B. She seems to be equating the deeds of Uday and Qusay with the posts in this message board. I know that’s not what she meant, but I’m inclined in this instance to critique her writing, not her intentions.
C. I’m fully aware of the finer shades of meaning, so you may shove your condecensions. My problem is that I have no stomach for moral relativism or any sympathy for monsters, for that is what Uday and Qusay were. I am not one bit sorry they are dead. They were evil, completely, absolutely fucking evil with not one shred of positive qualities to ameliorate my judgment of them.
On preview:
And again, you missed the point of that scene. Goethe wasn’t being good, he was exercising his Godlike powers of life and death, which was what Schindler was playing on when he talked to Goethe about the Roman emperors granting reprieves to gladiators. If you thought he wasn’t going to keep killing Jews, you really are unbelievably naive.
Why not? When murderous assholes exit this world, the world becomes a better, freer place. Why isn’t that worthy of comment?
I can just imagine Jarbaby at this year’s installment of Lord of the Rings, piously scolding people for clapping when Sauron is destroyed when the ring falls with Gollum into the fires of Mt. Doom
I, for one, have no wish to see the pictures. I think circulating them in Iraqi media is an excellent idea to squash any rumors the deaths are fake, but there’s no need to see them here.
“Those pictures were disgusting. I regard the showing of those pictures as absolutely unacceptable.”
–Lt. Gen. John Abizaid, from Doha, Qatar
Oh, wait! He was complaining about al Jazeera showing pictures of Americans killed in battle! Waving bloody pictures of Uday and Qusay’s dead bodies are completely different! Never mind…
actually rjung I can see a difference between the two situations. In the first case, we had GI’s, just doing their job. IN the second case, we had leaders, of whom the populace were justifiably afraid. There is some rationale for releasing proof of their deaths. Since it’s possible that the Americans have less than zero credibility for truth in that part of the world, pictures would seem to be an effective means of demonstration. though I don’t see the need to be posted world-wide.
On the OP - no glee here. I can understand why the specific victims of their regime may feel any range of emotions, but there’s no joy here. two murderous thugs have died. Their humanity died an untold number of years ago.
I just took a look at them. They’re intended to demonstrate with a fair amount of certainty that it was indeed Oday and Qusay and that they’re without a doubt deal. The pictures do that.
They’re also respectful in that they could have showed a lot more of the mangled bodies but chose not to. I think they illustrated what they needed to and nothing more.
It was necessary they distribute these for the Iraqi people to see for themselves that these two thugs raen’t coming back. I hardly think the motivation to show them is comparable to the al Jazeera decision.
Well, there is a difference. Qusay and Uday were important memebers of the regime who could rally resistance against our troops. Showing their pictures on Iraqi TV and in Iraqi newspapers will prevent rumors that the deaths were faked.
In any event, I’m sure you can see the difference between the deaths of US soldiers and the deaths of two serial murderers and rapists.
Well, gobear, I am sorry to keep harping on this point, but I just can’t believe that you are being straightforward here. I contend that it is merely facetious of you to pretend that you believe jarbaby’s use of “wrong” twice in one sentence means that she holds two acts to be completely equivalent, and that she can’t figger out the difference between the victims of torture and those who did the torturing.
From where I stand, you seem to be overreacting, trying to make her sound as inhuman and insensate as possible while you bristle with righteous fury, and for the goddamn life of me I don’t know why.
Right, your analysis is mature. It’s not naive and simplistic at all to assert that humans never do atrocious things. Uday and Qusay did atrocious things, therefore they must be something other than human. Monsters, yeah, that’s what they were. After all, no true Scotsm- I mean human - would ever do anything like what they did. No logical fallacy there, nosirree.
Now I’ll wait for you to come back and whine that I’m misrepresenting your position, conveniently forgetting how you twisted my words beyond recognition just because you were in the mood for a flamefest.
By the way, do you really want to start on the “moms” thing? As someone who obviously prides himelself on how “grown up” he is, I wouldn’t have thought you’d want to go there.
Reread my post. I said “B. She seems to be equating the deeds of Uday and Qusay with the posts in this message board. I know that’s not what she meant, but I’m inclined in this instance to critique her writing, not her intentions.” When she writes that their deeds and the reaction to their deaths are both wrong, that’s equating the gravity and the dimensions of the two things. And again, I know that’s not what she intended, but I’m judging her writing, not her intentions.
Hmm, who’s overreacting? I am not making Jarbaby sound inhuman and insensate–to the contrary, I’m showing that her feelings are mere sentimentality that is grossly misplaced in this instance. Udai and Qusai’s deaths deserve not one gram of regret, just satisfaction that they are gone.