Once again, you really need to be more clear in your posts, Monty, because one could read into this that you think that somebody who isn’t as perfect as Jesus and may take some earthly pleasure from the death of two vile people, are trying to kill the teachings of Jesus. I’m sure you don’t mean that, because then you’d be one of the most smug, self-righteous bastards I’ve ever had the displeasure to deal with on these boards, and we all know that isn’t true. Right?
Monty, the most fundamental tenet of Jesus’ teachings was:
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Let me tell you something. Were I to spend a few decades torturing and raping people for the sheer amusement of it, when it came time for some reckoning I sure as Hell wouldn’t be expecting a lot of mercy. I’d expect whomever to blow my brains out promptly and toss me in the nearest ditch. Asking for mercy would be more of an insult than anything else. I would think the only mercy to be hoped for would come in the form of a quick head shot instead of several gut and crotch shots preceding it.
If I had those two maggots cornered, you better believe that I’d blow them away without a second thought. Someone who has spent so long maiming innocent people is more than a little unlikely to suddenly amend their ways. The most you can hope for is that they will feign repetence until they can find a way to knife you in the back. If you want to take your chances trying to rehabilitating slimeballs like Odai and Qusai, go out and catch them before anyone else does. You can take them back to your house for a little tea and sympathy until they slit your throat and laughingly rape your wife and children.
Organized professionals are the ones who have to do this sort of dirty work. Don’t expect them to be overly concerned (save for intelligence reasons) about preserving the skins of such dirt bags. I sure as Hell am not and don’t expect anyone who is putting their life on the line to give a rusty fuck about salvaging the souls of such murderous thugs.
You give them what they gave out. I’d expect nothing less were I in their shoes. Jesus’ teachings aren’t being killed. We’re doing unto others as they have done to everyone else. Save your sanctimonious bullshit for when you have gone out and done the dirty work yourself. I’d give a day’s pay to shake the hands of whatever helo crew launched that TOW into their little hideaway.
It’s “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. It’s not “Do unto others as they have done unto you”, or “do unto others as they expect you do to unto them”. The difference isn’t that hard to see, if you’re looking for it.
Just one point regarding your above comment. I don’t believe for one minute that when a despot has to turn and look death in the face that he/she is thinking - ‘damnit, I knew this would happen, I deserve everything I get, I’ve been very bad, do your worst’, they will more likely be thinking ‘oh, no, please don’t kill me, I’ll do anything to stop you from killing me.’
Otherwise, they probably wouldn’t have committed the atrocities in the first place.
Zenster: I’ll simplify it a bit. The most fundamental teaching of Jesus was (a) Love God, and (b) Love others.
Hamlet: I honestly don’t care what someone would think. I happen to believe that Jesus commanded us all to be perfect. There’s no crime in trying and, I’d think this is obvious, those who are doing the dance on the grave schtick are trying to be the exact opposite.
Gotcha. Not living up to Jesus’ example = killing his teaching. Smug, self-righteous bastard it is, then.
That would certainly be a good description of you in this thread at the moment, Hamlet. I’m saying that those who are intentionally ignoring the example are “killing his teaching.” Come on, you seem to think you have some smarts. That concept can’t be all that hard for you to fathom, can it?
New definition for chutzpah: calling someone smug and self-righteous while you’re dancing on another person’s grave.
Well, according to Yahoo news,
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030723/ap_on_go_pr_wh/assassination_ban_5
Gee Monty I musta just imagined the huge chasm between being human and not following a perfect example and “killing his teaching.” In my world, killing a person’s teaching would require positive actions to destroy lessons for humanity, usually with malice. And not being able to be perfect would be… oh, human. Using loaded terms like “killing his teaching” and “executions” in your posts and then bitching about somebody getting pissed at the implications shows you got some balls. Not much else, but at least you got balls.
And Sublight, reread my very first post in this thread explaining my feelings about their deaths. Then, if you want to come back here and say I’m dancing on another person’s grave, I’ll be more than happy to tell you to go fuck yourself. I’ll assume, for now, that you posted out of temporary ignorance rather than complete disregard for the truth.
Well, I go away for an evening only to find that the standard of posting has been raised to ‘Christlike’ in my absence. Were Jesus to make his second coming I doubt he would be willing to claim any Pit thread past or present as an exemplar of his teachings. For that matter with such a high standard we have a lot of MPISMS and IMHO threads to disavow. Better get busy.
Only Monty would have the amazing chutzpah to suggest that he expects us to live up to His standard. I can’t possibly wrap my brain around the idea that Monty might actually think he lives up to Jesus’ teaching in all of his posts. Perhaps he would tell us different though.
Blackeyes, just for the record, that prohibition applies to Heads-of-State, which Uday and Qusay most definitely were not.
Besides, they had the chance to give up and refused. Too bad, so sad.
fruitbat: Did I say I lived up to it? FYI: I do not appreciate, nor condone, damn lies. My suggestion is that we all try (remember where I posted above about there being no crime in trying?) to live up to the biblical injuction “to be perfect.” Now, it’s painfully obvious that humans aren’t pefect; however, it’s not all that obvious that “lack of perfection” = “dancing on the grave.” I merely assert that the grave dancing is a serious moral failure which, btw, is taking some extreme delight in someone’s death. Gee, that’s really terrible of me, ain’t it to suggest that people not intentionally do the opposite of decent action? :rolleyes:
How the friggin’ hell did this become a purile righteous debate in religious “holier than thou” terms?
For fuck’s sake? Imagine some Arab messageboard where similar nongy’s are discussing this exact same subject, but in terms of what the Great Muhammad actually meant in the Koran. Imagine the same righteous indignation and flared tempers.
Shit… who gives a rat’s arse if Jesus, or Ghandi’s, or friggin Muhammeds, or even John Lennons teachings aren’t being followed? Get a grip. Any idiot can turn even road rage into a great religious debate.
Iraq is an ongoing military operation. It’s nasty. It’s deadly. It’s probably quite immoral in a shitload of aspects. Am I glad I’m on OUR side of the fence? Damn right.
So… you soldiers in Iraq doing the nasty shitty jobs? Go you good things. Mind your backs and forget about the religious idiots back home. You’ve got enough religious idiots in Iraq to watch out for.
You do NOT love humanity. You love good examples of humanity because they they make you proud to be a human being. So do I. So do most of us.
Bad examples of humanity, on the other hand, make you uncomfortable. So uncomfortable, in fact, that you want to forget that you share something with them. But you do. And so do I. Humanity is not the magical touchstone that makes all the evil things in the world go away. Humanity is capable of profound compassion, charity, and goodness. It is also capable of unspeakable depravity, and unfathomable evil.
In this thread, I think Weirddave provided the best example of the “Humanity is what makes us special” line of bullshit when he said
Needless to say, I disagree. The only thing we are “reaffirming” is our willingness to deny what human nature has proven itself capable of. And that, IMO, is cowardly.
“Humanity” MEANS that you have human DNA. No one can have human DNA and not be a part of humanity. Furthermore, I think I know a human when I see one, and Uday Hussein, Qusay Hussein, Idi Amin, Strom Thurmond, and I are - or were - humans. All of us. I may not like it, but I sure as hell am not going to deny it.
I concede that Uday and Qusay may have needed killing, and that it’s a good thing they can’t hurt anyone else. Plus, their deaths may shorten this conflict, which may save more lives, which is also good. Revenge alone, however, would not have been enough reason for me to support this operation. And as a practical matter, it makes no difference whether they died immediately or suffered unimaginable pain before succumbing to a welcome death.
Nice to see that you recognize bullshit, but I suppose that isn’t hard when you’re slinging it like tomorrow it’s going to be taxed. Our DNA is what makes us human beings. “Humanity” is much more than that, including overcoming what you so blythly label “human nature”.
Thank you for playing, you may now continue moaning about how we’re all just a bunch of animals. Maybe someday you’ll grow up.
A little touchy, Weirddave? If you’re too lazy and ignorant to bother reading my post for comprehension rather than opportunities to take cheap shots, then maybe you have a little growing up to do yourself.
And what’s with all the thanking people for “playing” that goes on around here? Was I on Jeopardy? Are you sending me away with a copy of the home game? What the fuck is that?
Good, indeed the poster-boy incidents of gassing were likely Iranian military attacks.
Were I to suggest that I would do so, so please, above all in relationship to this region, refrain from attempting to put words in my mouth.
Sadaam in his conflict with Kurdish separatists killed a lot of Kurds. It is not clear he actually gassed whole villages, that might not be true. There is enough evidence of his brutality and monstrous behaviour without us having to abandon a concern for facts in order to paint some simple minded medieval picture of Vlad the Impaler in Baghdad.
So rest assured, Sadaam Bad.
No one is kidding anyone, however as a point of fact, Sadaam was not operating a program of genocide against the Kurds as such. He was brutally crushing Kurdish seperatists, brutally and without the slightest regard for humanity. However, calling it genocide abuses the word genocide based on my understanding based on analyses of Sadaam’s rule.
The man was bad, let us not engage in any more “Throwing Babies out of Incubators” kind of posturing to prove it. The mass graves of his opponents are good enough.
Zenster
Actually, His most fundamental tenet was this:
“Be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.”
I appreciate your one man battle to eliminate evil, Zenster, but another of Jesus’s teachings is to ‘forgive someone seven times seven’ and also to ‘turn the other cheek’ and also NOT TO TAKE AN EYE FOR AN EYE.
I am angered and saddened by all of the death and killing going on in Iraq and around the world, but I also believe, just as it was wrong for Uday and Qusay to relish in the torture and rape of citizens, it’s wrong for me to relish and ‘take pleasure in’ their murder. It’s ALL BAD. There is no ray of sunshine…it ended how it had to end, but it’s not a happy ending.
I love humanity and this world so much that it does nothing but sadden and frustrate me to see people turn to evil and darkness for their entire lives, and when they die as a result of that evil, still in darkness, it makes me WEEP that they never saw what joy and peace can be found in being a good person.
Believe me, I know it’s naive, I’m the gal who actually thought Amon Goethe was going to turn into a GOOD NAZI in Schindler’s List :rolleyes: