A Thought Experiment (About Magic)

The BBQ Pit
1

Let us ask for a volunteer - perhaps jab1, given the magic is stupid thread. (I would have posted this on the end of that thread, but as it’s already grown to mighty lengths, I thought I’d start a new one - and this is arguably a new direction, anyway.

Now, I’d like to outfit jab1 with a slightly-more-than-state-of-the-art GPS device, surgically implanted somewhere in his or her body… this device having an interface to electrodes planted similarly in his or her brain that create a slight pleasurable tingle whenever jab1’s net change in direction is towards a city, town, or other populated area, or a body of water. I’ve also programmed the device to deliver an unpleasant jolt, although certainly not incapacitating, if the next change in direction is away from any of those things.

Finally, I’d like to plop jab1 down in the middle of some dry and unforgiving wasteland, such as the Gobi or Texas, along with a group of unsophisticated rednecks from the deep Ozarks, who have never even heard of satellite positioning systems.

I’m curious, in those circumstances, what arguments jab1 - or anyone similarly situated - might employ to convince the group to follow you, because you and only you know – pretty much for sure – which way to go to get to safety, and which way means that your bleached bones will be left for future travellers to find.

  • Rick
2

Well, let us know how it all turns out, I guess…

(what the hell??)

Zette

3

Huh?

4

Well, if they’re just…“unsophisticated rednecks from the deep Ozarks”…then they’ve probably heard of satellite something–satellite dishes to pick up pro wrestling and monster truck pulls. So you could presumably get the basic idea across. Of course, if you start babbling about the microchip implanted in your brain, they might get the wrong idea, and turn you over to the local militia group as an agent of the Vast One World Government Conspiracy.

Now, if they’re members of some Stone Age tribe from the jungle someplace, I guess you’d probably have no real recourse than to say “I have powerful magical abilities. The Great Sky Spirits guide my steps. Trust in me and I can get us out of here.”

As Arthur Clarke put it, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”.

What’s your point, anyway? With such a system, you could demonstrate that it worked; that you really had such an ability. The system would still work no matter how skeptical your companions were, or how many Bad Disbeliever Vibes they gave off. All the principles of the system could be communicated to anyone willing to learn about electronics, orbital mechanics, etc., to a level of detail commensurate with their level of learning.

P.S. And why is this in the Pit, anyway?

5

Wait! On re-reading the OP, I get it!

Arguments: “Follow me guys! I have a GPS mysteriously implanted in my body somewhere that tells me which direction to go via electrical shocks!”

He might be belived… maybe… seeing as how this is at least sort-of pausible given the state of current technology…

Maybe…

6

I think that what Bricker is trying to say here is that, in this situation, your only recourse to explain how you have come by advanced and inexplicable knowledge that can’t be shared, but which is absolutely essential to have accepted on faith alone, is to say “It’s, like, magic”.

I think.

::scratches head::

7

What he is saying, or seems to be saying is that if to some stone age people a GPS uplink would seem like magic, then the magic people claim to be doing is nothing more than some forces that we don’t know about. Apparnently a force that only works when its convienient. :rolleyes

Of course he could be implying that anybody that uses magic has some implanted alien chips that allow one to control matter with just a thought, and zap thier private parts in rounds of pure pleasure when they get naked and dance in a circle in an isolated part of the woods.

8

Why would he care if the rednecks follow?

9

He would say, “Follow me and I’ll prove it to you.” He would then proceed to do so. A few skeptics might say, “Bullshit! You just got lucky.” He would then show them through many repeated, controlled trials that he did, indeed, have this power. What he wouldn’t do would be to offer to prove it and then back off when he got some takers.

Haj

10

Check out the “Does Magic Exist” thread in Great Debates.

11

Does Magic Exist?

[sub]Man, they’ll make anybody a moderator these days…[/sub] :smiley:

12

I think I liked the old Bricker Challenges better.

13

Yeah, anybody but you. :slight_smile:

14

Sticking with the original scenario in the OP, I think that telling a bunch of ignorant rednecks you’ve got a microchip implanted in your brain would make them * more likely * to believe and follow you.

“Shee-it, I gots one a those! Wuz yers put there by th’ UN er the Jews?”

15

Officially blacklisted already… First the Masons, now the SDMB Moderator staff.

If I’m going to join the ranks of the elite, I’m clearly going to have to maintain a lower profile…

16

Depends on the species of ignorant redneck. I’d probably rattle through bible knowledge, and tell them JEEEEEZUS was guiding me, using vague parables like Saul in the desert suddenly seeing.

Then I’d find a doctor, take out the system, find the person who implanted it and kick their ass. If I’d impressed the rednecks enough, they might even help me! I’d use vague parables about JEEEEZUS kicking the snot out of the moneylenders in the temple and such.

17

Don’t feel too bad, Giraffe. We’ve had it in for you since Day One. Each day we post the names of new members up on a large dartboard, and three darts are thrown. Sorry :slight_smile:

18

This is just a minor variation of the “they laughed at (insert famous person here)” argument. Claiming that magic could be true, we just don’t understand (or refuse to see) the principles involved. In fact, this argument just doesn’t hold up, which several of the previous posters in the thread have pointed out. But it bears repeating.

We don’t need to know how why something works to verify that it is does in fact work. If it is real, its existence can be demonstrated, tested for, and confirmed. (Although you can bet your ass that as soon as some oddball phenomenon is demonstrated to be actually true, many folks will be trying to figure out the hows and whys.)

In the situation given, on a one-time or first-time basis, there is no good basis for anyone in the group to believe you or not. No one could be blamed for doubting you if you were claiming you had something they can’t see, hear, feel, or experience in any way, which they’ve never heard of before, and for which they have no plausible explanation for how it works.

But the difference between someone claiming to have magic powers, and someone who really has some new technology or is utilizing some heretofore unknown principal is the ultimate correctness of the claim being made.

The guy with the GPS unit will find cities reliably and repeatedly, the guy with a magic method will not (or at least never has, in thousands of years of trying). So when the guy with the invisible GPS unit does find city after city when no one else in the group can, reasonable people will conclude that he is the real deal, even though they don’t understand why or how it works. This is unlike the magic method which only finds cities at the rate predicted by random chance, and whose followers die in the wilderness as often as they survive.

This is not to say that the guy claiming to have magic won’t be believed by some people anyway, because he will be. Under ordinary (and especially under extraordinary) circumstances, people are terrible at separating what really happens with what they want or think happened. This is why we need science. To make multiple, rational, objective evaluations of the claims, the tests, and the outcomes.

Ugly

19

Tsk tsk. Everyone knows the UN is the Jews, silly.