If I lobotomize myself into a “liberals don’t tolerate intolerance” frame of pseudounderstanding, yeah, I might LOL too. Otherwise, the irony you think you see there is not really there at all. Thanks for trying, though.
I think he was referring to what Gyrate was mocking:
Ah. What I said was:
When I said “the other side”, I didn’t mean the “let’s rape people” side. I meant the “let’s not take rape seriously, let’s belittle victims of rape, let’s pour salt in their wounds by talking about how trashy they dressed, let’s look after the fact for what they or their parents did wrong” side. My apologies if that was unclear. I thought I was being mocked for being hateful and self-righteous, which maybe I was, but not really in the way I was snarling at margin for being.
We appear to have scared TWTTWN off, but if he’s still lurking, he’s probably laughing his head off. This thread started as a pitting of his rape apologist views and has done a 180 degree turn and become the predictable hate on margin that most rape threads become.
My only real problem with margin is she can seem pretty humorless. In fact, that is how this thread turned. People were joking about rapecakes and she came in to say that wasn’t funny because rape is NEVER funny. Then everyone turned on her.
I agree with her that rapecakes weren’t funny, but not because rape isn’t ever funny. It can be. Rapecakes were maybe funny the first few posts, but people were beating a dead joke to death.
…which is kinda my point. As I said before, if margin would adopt a nuanced view , something like
then the focus of the thread could be on what it should be on. But when I suggested this to her, she inexplicably called me a lying sack of shit and launched her crazyfruitcakitude right at my face. Which is exactly the tone I’m talking about. She turns what could be a decent thread about how to minimize sexual assault into an argument with her craziness.
Same thing could happen anywhere. If there were a thread about whether Pluto should be considered a planet, and if someone came in and said, “Pluto is an alien spaceship, not a planet,” you can believe the thread would turn into a discussion of whether Pluto is an alien spaceship. If there were a discussion of whether pit bulls were dangerous, and someone came in and said, “There’s zero correlation between dog breeds and behavior,” that’s what the discussion would be about. If, in a discussion of Christianity, someone came in and started saying that all religious leaders were frauds and villains, well, we’ve seen what happens.
My only real problem with margin is that she appears to be unable to distinguish any degrees of belief between “100% agreement with margin” and “OMG TEH ENEMY SLAY IT”. Witness how she spends her time in this thread–yelling at people who were yelling at TWTTWN for being a rape enabler.
And at people making pancake jokes.
I think part of the key is teaching boys that girls and women are people rather than objects, scenery or secondary characters in someone else’s story. I’ll be (somewhat) hyperbolic here and point out that as dehumanizing the enemy is key in warfare, not seeing women as human as full human beings (and this has been the case throughout history, and still is the case in some countries, and in some people’s minds) allows people to do things to them that they might not otherwise.
You just take your rapecakes out of this thread, bucko. It’s srsbizness now.
That nuanced view is idiotic. The mythical back alley rape is only slightly more likely to happen than winning the lottery. Should we preface EVERY financial discussion with something about winning the lottery because winning the lottery is possible? We need to realize that when we’re talking about rape, we’re really talking about date rape; they’re synonymous unless otherwise stated. Conditioning men not to be rapists isn’t the best way to fight this evil, it’s really the ONLY way. Men are bigger than women and if they want to rape, there’s little women can do to stop them. Fucktards like TWTTWN need to have it beaten into them that there isn’t a fine line between rape and not rape. That’s close to margin’s view as I understand it. It’s also close to mine. Margin’s delivery needs work, she needs to grow a sense of humor, but I can understood why she is that way when you think that’s a “nuanced view,” not an idiotic non-starter. FWIW, I have a penis.
Cite?
According to this cite, 15-20% of rapes are not acquaintance rapes. Other cites I see put the number as low as 10%. That corresponds exactly to what I said, and only to what you said if you’re including break-even prizes in “winning the lottery.”
By the way, margin is incredibly offended that you just compared rape to winning the lottery.
Well, that’s kind of what we do here. That and Olympic-level nitpickery.
Comparing it to winning the lottery was a little bit of hyperbole. Do we have to talk about that 10% every time we talk about rape, or can just focus on the 90%. At best, you’re nuanced view is a worthless caveat.
There’s no nitpicking event at the Olympics.
Whoa, you missed my point by a country mile. Gyrate got it. Since when do you let a person who you say is on your own side of an argument (only in your opinion too over the top and unwilling to accept you as the ally you say you are) turn you against the side you say you’re on? That’s bullshit.
@ Invisible Chimp: don’t conflate date rape with acquaintance (or anything-but-stranger) rape. I think, though I’m not positive, that date rape as such is also relatively uncommon; and that the majority of rapes are of the “neighborhood friend who pulls you aside at the barbecue”/“cop who drove you home after your car broke down”/“plumber who convinces himself you smiling at him the last time he unclogged your toilet means you want his body this time” types. In terms of derailing good discussions (which I’m not sure this one is, but anyway), I mostly see both ends used against the middle. Stranger rape gets brought up in terms of “sensible precautions” and “don’t dress like a slut” and all that jazz. Date rape gets some of that, plus also gets dragged out for the “this low-probability gray area is going to made to stand in for all rapes” tap dance.
I don’t. I might, however, get turned against a viewpoint if I haven’t really thought much about it and the person I encounter who’s espousing it is totally loathsome, dishonest, and vitriolic in their advocacy for their viewpoint. Which was what I was saying.
No, we don’t have to keep talking about it, as long as stupid fuckers stop denying that 10% exists. Have you not read anything I’ve said?
Technically you’re wrong: the chimpanzee Olympics has one.
You guys always come through for me. 
**Myth: Women who dress or act provocatively are more likely to get raped. **
Facts: Activity of victims at time of incident
Working or on duty: 11% Going to or from work: 1% Going to or from school: 3% Going to or from other place: 4% At school: 5% Leisure activity away from home: 29% Sleeping: 20% Other activity at home: 25% Other: 2%
A Federal Commission on Crime of Violence Study found that only 4.4% of all reported rapes involved provocative behavior on the part of the victim. In murder cases 22% involved such behavior (as simple as a glance).
Most convicted rapists do not remember what their victims were wearing.
Most sexual assault victims are wearing regular clothes like blue jeans or pajamas when they are assaulted, not provocative clothing.
Victims are chosen because of their vulnerability, not because they are sexually provocative.
But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped-and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers. Predatory men can accurately identify submissive women just by their style of dress and other aspects of appearance. The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation.
**Myth: Most rapes occur in dark alleys or other places. Women who get raped do so because they went to risky areas. **
Facts: 57% of sexual assaults took place while on a date
43% of rapes occur in a residence, often the victims own home, and 36% occur in cars
Location of offense: At victim’s home: 36% Near home: 1% Friend, Relative, Neighbor’s Home: 24%
Other commercial building: 1% On school property: 8% Common yard, park, field, playground: 3%
On street other than near home: 9% Other: 18%
Almost two-thirds of rapes and sexual assaults occur between the hours of 6:00 pm - 6:00 am, but not in dark alleys. They occur in the victim’s dorm room or apartment.
Almost 60 percent of the completed rapes that occurred on campus took place in the victim’s residence, 31 percent occurred in other living quarters on campus, and
10.3 percent took place in a fraternity
Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone’s home. 30.9% occur in the perpetrators’ homes, 26.6% in the victims’ homes and 10.1% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7.2% occur at parties, 7.2% in vehicles, 3.6% outdoors and 2.2% in bars.[30]
Myth: The vast majority of men would never, ever commit rape. Only a few, twisted individuals are responsible for rape/sexual assault, and nothing needs to change about how we talk to young men and women about sex.
Facts: [Study on grade schoolers]56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed that forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances
in the 11-14 age bracket, 51% of boys and 41% of girls said that forced sex was acceptable if the boy “spent a lot of money” on the girl
56% of the girls and 76% of the boys believed that forced sex was acceptable under some circumstances
[Studies on college students]
The subjects were given descriptions of three types of dates that varied in respect to who initiated the date, where the couple went, and who paid. They were then asked if there were any circumstances in which forced sex was justified. Men rated intercourse against the woman’s wishes as significantly more justifiable when the woman initiated the date, when the man paid and when the couple went to the man’s apartment.
UCLA researchers posed similar questions to teens. A high percentage of the male teens felt that forced sex was acceptable if the woman said yes and then changed her mind (54%), if he spent a lot of money on her (39%), if she “led him on” (54%), and if he is so turned on that he thinks he can’t stop (36%).
One in twelve male college students admitted to committing acts that met the legal definition of rape, and 84% of those men who committed rape did not label it as such
35% of college males admitted that under certain circumstances they would commit rape if they believed that they could get away with it.
43% of college men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman’s protest and using physical aggression to force intercourse
15% acknowledged they had committed date rape, and 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force women to have sex.
Half of all college students do define an attack as a rape, especially if no weapon was involved, there are no signs of physical injury or alcohol is involved.
84 percent of those men who committed rape said that what they did was definitely not rape.
In the Kent State survey, two-thirds of the women polled said men often misinterpreted how intimate they wanted to be. A full 25 percent reported they gave in to their dates’ demands because of verbal pressure, while 13 percent said they were physically forced into sex.
Cites:
http://budotalk.com/acquaintance-or-date-rape.html
http://www.doitnow.org/pages/175.html
http://www.openleft.com/diary/14082/victimology-of-rape
http://www.blogotariat.com/node/216481
http://www.personalarms.com/f_acquaintance_rape.htm
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
http://www.aaets.org/arts/art13.htm
http://pathwayscourses.samhsa.gov/vawp/vawp_supps_pg11.htm
http://webs.wichita.edu/?u=police&p=/sexual_assault/
http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
http://pathwayscourses.samhsa.gov/vawp/vawp_supps_pg11.htmhttp://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Similarities_And_Differences_In_Women_s_Sexual_Assault_Experiences_Based_On_Tactics.pdf
What is important for men to do: If you’re a man: Realize that “no” means “no.” Respect a woman’s right to turn you down, and don’t let your self-esteem hinge on whether you score or not. And don’t drink too much or do drugs on a date, either. Of the men who were identified as having committed acquaintance rape, 75 percent had taken drugs or alcohol just prior to the rape (Koss, 1988).
Note how much this ‘Patterns in acquaintance rape” strongly resembles the ‘kino’ escalation used by PUA: "Groth and Birnbaum reported a three-stage pattern in rapists’ behavior concerning acquaintance rapes. First a rapist will invade a woman’s personal space (for instance, by putting his hand on a woman’s knee in a public place). This is common in fraternity parties and in bars when the music is so loud the couple must be close to hear each other.
If the woman does not object, the rapist proceeds to the second stage in which he will desensitize her to the intrusion by escalating the behavior (moving his hands to her buttocks, for example). It is unlikely that she will tell him that she is uncomfortable with his “roaming hands” but she may feel uneasy as a result of this behavior and suggest going someplace less crowded. She does not want her friends to see how forward he is being, and she does not want to stay close to him. He may misinterpret her suggestion as her way to be alone with him. The third stage is when they are in an isolated place and the rapist attacks."
I believe that the PUA culture definitely contributes to date rape in that it views women as conquests, encourages men to value their self-worth based on the number of sexual partners, perpetuates the idea that women “don’t know what they want”, and encourages men to constantly push women past their comfort zone.