A word about raw milk, if you will

The BBQ Pit
121

[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington]
Fine, I’ll drop it.

I’m a diabetic. If I used “But it tastes so good!” as an excuse to frequently consume candy and sweets, wouldn’t you call that stupid? The risk for exposure to e. coli or campylobacter grows every time you consume raw milk, just like the damage done by sweets to a diabetic person grows with every sweet consumed.

[/QUOTE]

Bull fucking shit.
I am diabetic, have been since 1980. I can eat anything in moderation, and if I choose to have a single perfect truffle as my evening treat, provided I have made allowances, I can. If I choose to have a piece of raw milk brie, and have made the nutritional choice to make that part of my daily allotment of food I can.

People into food as an artform are gourmets, not gluttons. Eating just candy because it is tasty is gluttony where opting for a death by chocolate cake as a dessert is a food option. Eating a piece of raw milk cheese for the taste is something that can be done as part of a normal daily diet. Drinking a glass of raw milk rather than a glass of pasteurized milk does not mean chugging it by the gallon.

Not everybody hunkers down in front of the fridge and eats until they explode. Most people eat reasonable amounts of food. Opting for the best quality and best tasting food you can afford is what most normal people do. If they choose to have raw milk products because the flavor is better [in their opinion] then that is what they get.

122

[QUOTE=gaffa]
I no longer drink much milk, but I’d like to have it available for cooking. And if you need half a cup for a recipe, you have the choice of going out and buying a specific small container, or buying an overly large container and seeing most of it go to waste. My point is that ultra-pasteurization is common in other countries and would allow me to purchase a quart and have it on the shelf for up to six months. I travel a lot, and I’m tired of throwing away half of what I buy.
[/QUOTE]

Nido brand instant whole milk, beats the hell out of the carnation instant skim garbage. Sits happily on the shelf until you need to mix some up. I adore egg custard, but sometimes when I want it I dont have milk, so I can mix some up. Though I have powdered whole egg, I have never tried to make custard with it [i also have chickens so fresh eggs are rarely a problem to get=)]

123

[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Is this an answer to my post on store-bought ground scrapings off the slaughterhouse floor?
[/quote]

Don’t be a fucking idiot. You were talking about pre-packaged ground beef, not “ground scrapings off the slaughterhouse floor”.

[/quote]
Please–continue to do whatever you want to do.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, thanks. I’m sure that it’s just around the corner, even though I’ve eaten raw beef since I was about 8. :rolleyes:

124

[QUOTE=magellan01]
I went to a chinese chiropractor and I saw improvements every week, while being completely “cured” in three-four months.
[/QUOTE]
I hope this chiro didn’t tell you that you were cured - that’s probably grounds for getting drummed out of the profession.

The chiro standard is to keep you coming back on a frequent basis for the rest of your life in order to keep your “subluxations” unluxed, your nerves unimpinged, your points and plugs adjusted etc.

Oh, and you should ask your practitioner just where any Chinese herbal drugs you’re consuming come from and about the reliability of the supplier. There’ve been a number of reports in recent years of Chinese “herbs” being adulterated with prescription drugs, toxic herbs not on the label being part of the mix and of contamination with heavy metals.

More on one such case here.

125

First off, cut out the snide “honey” shit right now. I didn’t use insulting words towards you, and I’m going to avoid doing it for one more post. But if you want to keep it up and continue to be nasty for the sake of, I assure you I can and will more than respond in kind.

[QUOTE=magellan01]
Here, let me lay it out for you more clearly. IF I had diabetes AND had no or limited success controlling it through traditional (western) methods, AND I had a trusted alternative healer who had helped me previously, AND he (or she) was of the opinion that cinnamon had been shown to help people in the past and might help me in my specific situation, I would probably try it.
[/QUOTE]

  1. You didn’t say that. I’m not going to bother to re-quote your words since they are available for all to read on here.

  2. You’ve set up an extremely unlikely scenario which borders on the impossible. I won’t say it is impossible because there are probably special cases out there. But it is extremely unlikely that a Type 1 diabetic would not be treatable by the standard practice of insulin injections which have proved successful since the 1920’s IIRC. In fact, if you are so untreatable that insulin injections do not work, you likely are not a Type 1 diabetic alone, but have some other metabolic disorder complicating things - such as liver cancer.

What I do know is that taking cinnamon will absolutely fucking not cure nor successfully treat, in the absence of insulin, Type 1 diabetes. I’m calling you out to present one, single, peer-reviewed scientific cite to say otherwise.

And if you cannot find scientific proof that cinnamon will treat or cure Type 1 diabetes, then why is the word of a single chiropractor (not an actual medical doctor) outweigh all the findings or lack thereof since diabetes has been discovered?

Nope, what you’re saying is that with millions of people suffering and dying from diabetes for millenia, if Western medicine “failed” you, somehow you would think that a lone Chinese chiropractor has found the way and do what they say. Why them? Why not a random suggestion from anyone else? Why not what I say? I’m not a medical doctor but I’ll bet I’ve read and studied thousands, yes absolutely fucking thousands of technical papers on diabetes. Why wouldn’t my opinion on diabetes as a sufferer who’s studied it for decades have more weight than an, um, chiropractor of all things? Wait, don’t answer that one, it’s rhetorical.

Re-ally. :dubious: You might want to search for past threads on this.

So if it’s not hocus-pocus or rooted in spiritualism, you will have absolutely no problem telling the following:

  1. The physical and scientific root-cause of your actual illness, and what tests were done to confirm this. Who verified this with a second opinion.
  2. The physical and scientific root-cause of the cure. How was this verified.
  3. The tests done which confirm that you were in fact cured by this treatment, and which prove it was not a coincidence, or some other environmental factor or activity factor which proves that it was that treatment and that treatment alone which did it (or to be fair to you, that treatment in conjunction with another factor).
  4. The double-blind study done which proved it was not placebo or psychosomatic effect.

I understand that you may not have the answers - few patients of Western medicine know this either, because they don’t ask, don’t care, or the doctor hasn’t spent the time to inform them. So I won’t hold you to an unfair standard. But your chiropractor will be able to answer all these things - if it’s not hocus pocus - so ask him to answer all of the above, and when he does, you can share it. However, from my experience with “traditional Chinese medicine”, my guess is he will be unable to provide the above.

Or alternately, you can again misread my attempt to explain to you why an unscientific-based process can be futile, hazardous, counter-productive, and even deadly - and that when it appears to work, you have no real way of proving that it was in fact working. Removal of symptoms is not necessarily proof that a treatment works.

126

[QUOTE=aruvqan]
4716 million lbs of milk were sold total in the US in Dec 07. Anybody have any idea what that works out to in gallons? and what 1% of that would be?Any idea what teh average person buys in the way of milk per year?
[/QUOTE]
Not quite 6 million gallons (4716000000/8*.01=5895000). A gallon of milk weighs about 8 pounds. It takes around 10-20 times as much milk as you get back in cheese, depending on the type.

http://web.extension.uiuc.edu/podcasts/dairy/200706.html says

127

[QUOTE=Cisco]
Masai still drink cow blood.
[/QUOTE]

Mixed with milk!

128

My understanding is that turkic peoples drink something called kumis, which is fermented mare’s milk flavoured with a bit of the mare’s blood.

129

Looking it up on wikipedia, I see no mention of blood. It’s apparently slightly alcoholic, though. Interesting.

130

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
First off, cut out the snide “honey” shit right now.
[/QUOTE]

Guess you don’t realize it, honey, but your post was insulting. If that was not your intent and would like to apologize for that, fine. Until then, bless your heart.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]

  1. You didn’t say that. I’m not going to bother to re-quote your words since they are available for all to read on here.
    [/QUOTE]

Yes, let them read.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
2) You’ve set up an extremely unlikely scenario which borders on the impossible. I won’t say it is impossible because there are probably special cases out there. But it is extremely unlikely that a Type 1 diabetic would not be treatable by the standard practice of insulin injections which have proved successful since the 1920’s IIRC. In fact, if you are so untreatable that insulin injections do not work, you likely are not a Type 1 diabetic alone, but have some other metabolic disorder complicating things - such as liver cancer.
[/QUOTE]

I set up a situation that was analogous to the experience I had. And why do you find it SO fucking hard to understand that I have no personal opinion about diabetes and/or cinnamon. I haven’t spent 2 seconds of my time looking into either of them, so excuse me for being logical and NOT opining on shit I know nothing about. Maybe you should try it.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
What I do know is that taking cinnamon will absolutely fucking not cure nor successfully treat, in the absence of insulin, Type 1 diabetes. I’m calling you out to present one, single, peer-reviewed scientific cite to say otherwise.
[/QUOTE]

Sheeze, you’re dense, Doctor. Tell me how did you manage to get a degree without being able to fucking read?

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
And if you cannot find scientific proof that cinnamon will treat or cure Type 1 diabetes, then why is the word of a single chiropractor (not an actual medical doctor) outweigh all the findings or lack thereof since diabetes has been discovered?
[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Reread what I’ve actually said. Or not.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
Nope, what you’re saying is that with millions of people suffering and dying from diabetes for millenia, if Western medicine “failed” you, somehow you would think that a lone Chinese chiropractor has found the way and do what they say. Why them? Why not a random suggestion from anyone else? Why not what I say? I’m not a medical doctor but I’ll bet I’ve read and studied thousands, yes absolutely fucking thousands of technical papers on diabetes. Why wouldn’t my opinion on diabetes as a sufferer who’s studied it for decades have more weight than an, um, chiropractor of all things? Wait, don’t answer that one, it’s rhetorical.
[/QUOTE]

Nope, not what I said or am saying. Reread.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
Re-ally. :dubious: You might want to search for past threads on this.
[/QUOTE]

Ohhh, my apologies. From now on, before I respond to a poster I’ll search the boards for everything they’ve ever said on both the root subject and tangential ones. Come to think of it, nah, I’ll just go by what they write in the thread. Sorry.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
So if it’s not hocus-pocus or rooted in spiritualism, you will have absolutely no problem telling the following:…
[/QUOTE]

I’ll just share this: Five doctors (MDs) total. Everything they did came up negative: Tons of blood tests, a couple different types of scans, colonoscopy, endoscopy, some seriously strong medicine that I cold take for only 2-3 days (forget the name). They were never able to figure out what the problem was. The main guy (Board Certified), finally—and literally—threw up his hands. Aside: this absolutely shocked me. I was expecting, at least, “I don’t know, but there’s a guy I think you should see…”

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
The tests done which confirm that you were in fact cured by this treatment, and which prove it was not a coincidence, or some other environmental factor or activity factor which proves that it was that treatment and that treatment alone which did it (or to be fair to you, that treatment in conjunction with another factor).
[/QUOTE]

I no longer had pain. I was able to eat foods that I was unable to eat, one by one, as I was treated for that specific food. I can now eat anything. According to my witchdoctor, I had somehow developed allergies to almost all foods. His treatments eliminated those allergies one at a time—2-3 at a time in some cases.

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
Or alternately, you can again misread my attempt to explain to you why an unscientific-based process can be futile, hazardous, counter-productive, and even deadly - and that when it appears to work, you have no real way of proving that it was in fact working. Removal of symptoms is not necessarily proof that a treatment works.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, guess I should have gone your route and done what my MD recommend—nothing! I’d still be in pain every day, but at least I wouldn’t have subjected myself to things not peer reviewed in a western journal. Oh, the horrors!

Look, I don’t know why you’re so biased against non-western methods, and I don’t really care. I just thought I’d share some things in this thread that have helped me—AFTER western medicine proved not up to the task. That is all. I’ve not recommended anyone do anything. In fact, I’ve declined to do so—since I have no training to do so, nor can I put myself in another’s body. I took responsibility for my own health and sought care, and abandoned that which was not helpful. So excuse me if I don’t take your approach and embrace 150 years of western medicine while shunning 5,000 years of the eastern variety. And remaining in pain!

Now, you’ll have to excuse me while I go get a nice cold glass of raw milk.

131

To the OP, I have read this entire thread, and you are so self-righteous and strident, you are even attacking the posters that are agreeing with you! Quit typing, starting reading and comprehending and maybe even thinking about other posters points of view OK? Or just keep fluttering around the barnyard crying “The sky is falling! The sky is falling!”

Yeah we get there are risks with raw milk. Some chose to take those risks. Too bad if you don’t like it. To call us idiots is well, idiotic. As more eloquent posters then I have already stated, as long as it’s an informed choice, and you are not feeding it to kids or the elderly who have no say in the matter, it is my choice thank you very much.

I have a small farm with goats that I currently milk for cheese, but I will be getting a milking cow shortly and I will be consuming raw milk. And enjoying every drop.

[QUOTE=gfloyd]
…Here in Massachusetts, there were several deaths a few months ago due to listeria. I’m not sure if it was from raw milk or contaminated pasteurized milk, but either way, it clearly does happen.
[/QUOTE]

Bolding is mine, because it was pasteurized. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here, but what I get is, pasteurized can kill you too.

PS. google is your friend, here is my source for YOUR bad example. cite

[QUOTE=featherlou]
Chiropractors are quacks, and practicers of Chinese medicine are dangerous quacks.
[/QUOTE]

Featherlou, you are the straight dope, quit fighting your ignorance, maybe it will go away.

aruvqan - thank you for the excellent rebuttal regarding diabetes. My mother has that too, and like you can eat just about anything… IN MODERATION!!!

magellan01 - Thank you for calling bullshit on bullshit.

132

[QUOTE=FarmerChick]

magellan01 - Thank you for calling bullshit on bullshit.
[/QUOTE]
Are you reading the same posts I’m reading?

133

[QUOTE=Inner Stickler]
Are you reading the same posts I’m reading?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe by “calling bullshit on bullshit” she meant “piling more bullshit on top of bullshit.” This is the only way it makes sense to me.

Also, if I were featherlou, I would totally be putting “I am the Straight Dope” in my sig file.

134

[QUOTE=Inner Stickler]
Are you reading the same posts I’m reading?
[/QUOTE]

You think meggellan needs to justify his experience and success with his health provider to anyone? Or do some lame bullshit between cinnamon and diabetes? Something that has NOTHING to do with anything?

Yeah good post megellan01.

135

Yeah–I think farmerchick says some wise things, but magellan’s woo-woo is exactly the sort of stuff that I believe the OP is right to condemn. The trouble is that the things she correctly condemns can get buried under the exaggerations, hyperbole, and nonsense of polio and rabies.

Daniel

136

[QUOTE=FarmerChick]
You think meggellan needs to justify his experience and success with his health provider to anyone? Or do some lame bullshit between cinnamon and diabetes? Something that has NOTHING to do with anything?

Yeah good post megellan01.
[/QUOTE]

Well, if he didn’t want to, he didn’t have to post to the thread, did he?

137

[QUOTE=FarmerChick]
You think meggellan needs to justify his experience and success with his health provider to anyone?
[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with his saying [paraphrased], “I prefer raw milk, because it agrees with my stomach better.” I DO have a problem with his suggesting some scientific explanation for this perception, lacking any basis whatsoever for making a scientific claim. If he said, “Raw milk agrees with my stomach more because the happy milk fairies haven’t been boiled to death,” that’d be fine. But he’s not talking about happy milk fairies, he’s talking about enzymes. You don’t talk about enzymes unless you have a scientific basis to do so, goddammit.

Daniel

138

[QUOTE=FarmerChick]
You think meggellan needs to justify his experience and success with his health provider to anyone? Or do some lame bullshit between cinnamon and diabetes? Something that has NOTHING to do with anything?

Yeah good post megellan01.
[/QUOTE]
I think if he’s going to start offering TCM as a valid alternative to more scientific medicine then he needs to sit down, shut up, and let the grownups do the talking.

139

Genuine question, so please no one jump on me. But wasn’t magellan only saying what worked for him, not encouraging other people to take his same route? If I missed something though, just point me in the right direction. Thank you.

140

Perhaps his body does find raw milk easier to digest. (Although I am skeptical of this.) But his posts are a tacit approval of snake oil and I don’t have a lot of patience for this kind of chicanery.