A word from SA regarding the "Insanity" thread

[mhendo]

@Starving_Artist

Do you really believe I’m posting dishonestly? Do you really think I would become involved in the shitstorms that I routinely do just for the hell of it?

Perhaps, perhaps not. I truly don’t know.

It could be that you honestly believe that your debating tactics and strategies are reasonable and forthright. I’m completely willing to concede that. But the fact that you might believe this doesn’t change the fact that i, and plenty of other people, perceive them as dishonest.

Of course, your next response will be that i’m wrong, and that my perception is merely a product of our political and personal differences. You probably feel that my own debating tactics are dishonest. Fair enough. There’s nothing i can say or do that will refute such an accusation. You might consider the fact that plenty of people agree with me about your tactics, but of course that is, for you, simply further proof that left/liberal ideologues control this board and are picking on you.

@Starving_Artist

I can tell you unequivocally that I firmly believe every word I say. Oftentimes, my words are either honestly or dishonestly misconstrued, or people may claim my style is dishonest, or they may disagree with what I’m saying and therefore believe I’m being dishonest, but these are subjective calls, and again I’m being completely honest in everything I say.

I believe you.

As i said in my previous post, i don’t begrudge you your conservatism, and i don’t even really want to change it. And i don’t think you’re a troll, or that you’re participating simply to get me angry and frustrated. But when i debate you honestly and rationally, that’s how i end up feeling, because you constantly change the terms of debate to suit your needs, and cherry-pick small matters from my main argument in order to support your point.

@Starving_Artist

But be that as it may, the trouble with you is that you’re in love with your own words. Plus, you’re a sneaky, conniving, underhanded little shit reminiscent of Excalibre, and an excitable, over-reactive, immature and explosive crybaby, as you so ably demonstrated in the thread you posted after being bitten by a dog.

Wow, that’s the seond post about my dog bite that you’ve made in the past two weeks. It must really chap your ass.

As for being compared to Excalibre, well, he and i had a few differences, but i think he was a good guy, and the board is the poorer for his absence, so i’ll take it as a compliment.

@Starving_Artist

Your posts are full of snide little digs, attempts at verbal sleight-of-hand, faux intellectual superiority and TLDR laboriousness.

Well, i guess we just have different opinions about what we’re doing here in the first place. What you call “TLDR laboriousness,” i see as necessary to fully and cogently make my points. The things is, many of the issues we discuss on these boards are complicated, and can’t be summarized in 50-word sound bites or short declaratory statements.

@Starving_Artist

I don’t recall the conversation where I didn’t respond to you, but if I didn’t - and I’m sure you must be right that I didn’t - it was probably because I felt it contained too much in the way of the qualities I just mentioned above.

I knew that your practices would somehow be my fault. Good to see that you’re consistent.

I see also, that you are apparently unwilling even to read the post is asked you to read, and respond to my points about it. Again, not too surprising.

@Starving_Artist

Further, I don’t know where you’re getting all this stuff about my so-called debating style. It would please me to be half as clever as you seem to think I am, but the fact of the matter is I don’t really try to engage much in debates, per se. My style is more one of flatly stating my opinon, and then if someone wants to argue about it, indulging them.

But the thing is, you state your opinion as if it were indisputable fact, then refuse to engage people who demonstrate that there are facts and evidence that call your opinion into question. And when other people state their own opinions, you dismiss them out of hand or go asking for the same sort of citations and evidence that you refuse to consider when it is presented to you.

Depending on whether or not it suits your political position, facts and evidence are either centrally important to you, or completely irrelevant. And you fly back and forth between these two extremes with total abandon, making it impossible to have a rational conversation with you.

@Starving_Artist

There is a difference - in my mind anyway - between arguing and debating. Debating involves cites, statistics, and details that I believe never lead to a conclusive resolution and only serve to further muddy up the waters of whatever is being discussed at the time. Arguing, on the other hand, simply involves a back-and-forth where two or more people are giving each other a piece of their mind.

Well, this explains a lot.

Whether i’m arguing with someone or debating with them, i think it is still important to be conscious of what constitutes my subjective opinion on a matter, and what constitutes more-or-less-objective facts and evidence. It might that the facts and the evidence won’t change my political worldview or my moral beliefs (and i don’t expect them to change yours, either), but they should not be ignored as if they never even existed.

@Starving_Artist

I have no illusion that I am gonna come up with any conclusive cites to prove my point of view, and I have no illusion that you’re or anyone else is gonna come up with any cites to prove their point of view to me. Thus I’m content, in the threads I enter, to speak my mind and let people make up their own minds as to whether or not my points have merit and to allow my opponents to do the same. You, on the other hand, seem always to be trying to shoehorn me into a formal debate of some sort, and then when I refuse to play along you get into high dudgeon and the accusations of dishonesty fly.

Again, this explains a lot. It’s the clearest you’ve ever been on the subject, and i thank you for it, because now it is i who will refuse to play. I see no point wasting time and effort constructing reasoned arguments for someone who makes very clear that he isn’t interested in them.

@Starving_Artist

The thing is though, this is just a message board. I’m entitled to state my opinions or to make my case in whatever way I choose. It didn’t take me long to see, based on the hundreds of erroneous posts around here regarding the nature of conservatives and Republicans that go completely uncontested, that the idea that this place fights ignorance is laughable, yet it is this conceit that leads people like you to try to convert every comment I make into a ‘debate’, and Starvy decided long ago that he just wasn’t gonna go there as it’s a complete waste of time.

Do you not see the contradiction in this paragraph, the fact that your own strategy and behavior is the very epitome of what you complain about in other people?

@Starving_Artist

So how about you present the things that you want to say in the that way you want to present them and let me present the things that I want to say in the way I want to present them, and we can both be content with the fact that we’re saying what we want the way we want.

Sure. But it means we won’t be talking to each other, because if i wanted to simply present my own point of view without actual interaction and exchange with other people, i’d post on a blog rather than a message board.

@Starving_Artist

And now, as far as your assessment as to what I am or am not worthy of or how you choose to behave toward me - an assessment that appears to carry great weight in your own mind - I really couldn’t care less.

I know that.

Of course my assessment carries great weight in my own mind. Surely that’s the first place any of our assessments should carry weight? If my assessment carried no weight in my own mind, then it probably wouldn’t be my assessment.

[Bambro]

@elucidator

Hamster Ciao…

Hey buddy, I see what you did there!

Pretty damn funny.

[Gyrate]

@Sateryn76

In that thread, I attempted to post a reasoned and clear response to the OP. I got one response - someone who called me for my “bullshit” and said I was “stupid.” I then posted a reply to that, again refraining from anything but the topic at hand. Although that poster stayed in the thread, he/she never responded to me. The balance of the thread became McCain/Palin bashing and insults. I have seen this in almost every political thread around here.

Yeah, I get that too. If you’re not on the fringe hurling insults, you’re too boring to respond to. (Although to be fair, Bobotheoptimist did reasonably respond to my questions in that thread.) I thought your post was entirely sensible, for what it’s worth; I just didn’t have anything in particular to respond to in it. No idea whether Stoid saw it (or cared).

It is absolutely possible that my response wasn’t particularly exciting and reply-worthy. Is it not also possible that most of the posters who hijack the political threads are not interested in debate, but just want to score points?

Yes.

I have seen my replies sink like a stone, and I came to discover that, around here, political threads are not about debate, but about bashing conservatives.

No. They’re about bashing the other side. It’s just that at the moment the left has a better supply of ammunition than it did in 2004 when Bush’s approval rating was higher and John Kerry was the (considerably less attractive) candidate, and the right were hurling all sorts of invective over the political fence.

I was also surprised that I got a PM from that posting - a completely regular, non-fangbearing conservative, who thanked me for my post.

Are you sure about the fangs?

There are so many huge issues wrapped up in this election, but I see very little actual debate about any of these issues. Most of them could be discussed without ever bringing up McCain ot Obama - at their core, they are issues of Constitutional debate, or morality calls, or debate about the impact of current actions on our future.

Sadly, most of these are being ignored in the actual campaigns. Perhaps we take our cues from them.

No dice; apparently, all questions are just excuses to show the Dope how left you are, how much you hate GWB, and how happy you are to toe the party line.

I don’t consider myself left and resent being characterized as such. It’s possible to hate GWB and not want anything to do with the Democratic party line either. Even many conservatives hate GWB and the neocons. It’s not a left-right thing.

But I’m sorry, guys, like it or not, the level of political discourse on this Board is completely left, and not very interested in talking it over.

It’s a phase. Wait until after the election (and after the “neener neener neener our candidate won” and “That’s it - I’m leaving the country” threads die down) - people will get sick of it and move on to other topics.

And may I say that it’s nice to see someone articulate and non-dogmatic in a political thread. Keep up the good work.

[Miller]

@Starving Artist

You call me stupid and stubborn for not coming around to your way of thinking when you offer this or that cite or argument, but how many of you have done a 180 in your politics because of this or that reasonable cite and argument posted by Sam Stone or Bricker?

Bricker, in particular, has convinced me of the need for gay marriage to arrive by legislative, and not judicial, means. Which is a pretty big concession for me, as you can imagine. Also, I’ve been convinced that the Democrats should drop gun control as one of their central values, although I can’t point to one specific poster who changed my mind on that issue.

That’s two off the top of my head. Now you go.

[jali]

Starving Artist,

Why do you think there are more left leaning members of the SDMB?

Seriously.

[42fish]

Anybody else looking forward to ‘A word from SA regarding “A word from SA regarding the ‘Insanity’ thread”’?

[Cervaise]

“And that word is … SNICKERS! We now return you to the world of the sane.”

[Uvula_Donor]

All of you assholes and your political circle jerks vastly overestimate your own importance.

[Starving_Artist]

To those of you wondering why I started this thread, it was in order to try to reach posters who had read some of the other thread and then given up on it as just more of the same ol’, same ol’ from both sides. I wanted them to know that I was aware of how I was behaving and why.

Responses to posters since I was last here may follow later.

[Mr.Svinlesha]

Sateryn76:

There are so many huge issues wrapped up in this election, but I see very little actual debate about any of these issues. Most of them could be discussed without ever bringing up McCain ot Obama - at their core, they are issues of Constitutional debate, or morality calls, or debate about the impact of current actions on our future. No dice; apparently, all questions are just excuses to show the Dope how left you are, how much you hate GWB, and how happy you are to toe the party line.

This is such a tiresome canard. How many times during the run-up to the Iraq war were our doubts and criticisms simply dismissed as unreasoning expressions of Bush hate?

Yet, in all honesty, I think I can see why you might feel this way. There is a reason. I didn’t use to be like this around here. But we on the “left,” and especially many of us here on SDMB, have suffered a long, long bitter winter. Believe me when in I tell you that the shoe was on the other foot once: no, don’t even believe me. Check out this thread for for some examples.

At this point, a lot of us are just exhausted. mhendo is one of the most reasonable, amiable, intelligent, insightful posters on these boards: look how SA responds to him. The same goes for tomndebb, who eventually gave up in the previous thread on this topic. And I tell you, your hero Sam is really among the worst, and, as far as I can see, utterly unredeemable.

We on the left have really been subjected to the worst sort of contempt, disrespect, and name-calling. We’re un-American because we think critically about the facts of US history and faults of the government. We’re unpatriotic. Even now Palin and McCain are going around dividing the country up into “real America” (those who vote for them) and, I guess, “false America” (those who vote for Obama and Biden).

So I concede that I, and many of my compatriots, have become less friendly, less willing to argue matters objectively, as time goes on. I see SA and I think, “Here is yet another person utterly immune to logical argument and matters of fact.” I’ve argued with so many of them since I started posting here. Sam thinks trees pollute more than automobiles do, for example. In my mind, you can no longer simultaneously claim to support the corrupt Republican party and its conservative agenda and simultaneously claim to be an intelligent, rational, sane person. The right has had virtually free reign to rule as it would like over the last eight years, and here we are.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating: and I tell you, this pudding tastes like shit. We tried to warn you that your pudding recipe seemed to contain a lot of fecal matter as its major ingredient: you told us to go fuck ourselves, loudly, for about 6 years, and then more and more softly as the smell of the pudding began to fill the kitchen. Now, if you’re going to sit there across the table from me and try to convince me it’s really chocolate, I’m not going to be polite to you anymore.

I wonder what on earth it would take to get the dead-enders, the remaining Bush supporters, neocons, and so on, to finally concede they were wrong about it all. I think it is this frustration you see among us when we so snidely respond to your posts. That, and the fact that if you post in the Pit, you should expect a ribald response.

Anyway, I’m desperate for debate with an intelligent, rational conservative, who won’t move the goalposts or otherwise welch out when he/she is wrong about something. I’m like that dude with lamp, looking for one honest man, only I’m looking for one honest conservative. Oh, that’s taking it to far: Ex-Tank, Airman Doors, and the long lost (and dearly missed) Patriot X all qualify. Problem is, for them, we are pretty much in agreement on most of the issues that matter: and not one would vote for McCain this year.

[E-Sabbath]

Anyone seen Ex-Tank about recently?

[Starving_Artist]

@Mr.Svinlesha

At this point, a lot of us are just exhausted. mhendo is one of the most reasonable, amiable, intelligent, insightful posters on these boards: look how SA responds to him.

I recall his saying once that many people around here probably think he’s an asshole, and then clearly stating that yes, he ‘owned’ it.

@Mr.Svinlesha

Ex-Tank, Airman Doors, and the long lost (and dearly missed) Patriot X all qualify. Problem is, for them, we are pretty much in agreement on most of the issues that matter: and not one would vote for McCain this year.

So the only reasonable conservatives are the ones who agree with you?

[Mr.Svinlesha]

Oh, one last thing: it’s telling, I think, that SA claims, in this thread, that he was, in the other thread, only “play-acting” to make a point. The fact is, I see no difference between what he posted in the previous thread and his usual posting style; nor did anyone else take a step back and say, “Hey, wait a second. That doesn’t sound like the SA I know!” On the contrary, we all just took him at his word. His responses were, in fact, absolutely typical for his posting style, and he’s even continued it in this thread in, for example, his response to mhendo.

And it’s so cool that he checks in for a second to tell us that he might be coming back later with some responses.

Idiot.

[Little_Nemo]

I’ll concede a few points to the OP. This is a predominantly liberal board. And we have rabid partisans on the left as well as on the right who hate their opponents and will never listen to what they have to say.

But I don’t concede that that creates any reason to join their number. You’ll never convert one of your rabid partisan opponents by any means. But those same rabid paritsans will never convert anyone either. Nobody ever changed their mind because somebody screamed at them about how wrong they are.

Admittedly, many people won’t be swayed by facts and reason either. But some people will listen and a few will reconsider their positions.

So you have to ask whether you actually want to convince one person that you’re right or enjoy uselessly yelling at a thousand people that they’re wrong.

[Starving_Artist]

@Mr.Svinlesha

Oh, one last thing: it’s telling, I think, that SA claims, in this thread, that he was, in the other thread, only “play-acting” to make a point.

And it’s telling that one of my opponents…one of the usual suspects, one might say…is yet again either erroneously mischaracterizing or lying about what I said.

I clearly stated that my inclination is to give as good as I get. Where my postings in the other thread deviate from the norm (which I didn’t comment on) is in their number and my willingness to keep things going.

I was a blank slate when I arrived at this board. Plus, you are what you eat. If you don’t like the way I post, you have only yourselves to blame.

[Starving_Artist]

@Little_Nemo

So you have to ask whether you actually want to convince one person that you’re right or enjoy uselessly yelling at a thousand people that they’re wrong.

I think to a significant degree it’s just to keep it from appearing that the leftie side is accepted as the correct one for lack of opposition.

[tomndebb]

@jali

Why do you think there are more left leaning members of the SDMB?

Because there are.

@jali

Seriously.

Seriously.
While some of the “Left / Right” divisions are overplayed, here, because the two party system in the U.S. forces nearly everyone to join one side or the other, there is evidence that this board leans “Left” politically (although with strong Libertarian influences).
I have noted this in this post from an earlier thread and followed it up with a(n inexact) tallying by sides in this later post from the same thread.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Starving_Artist

I was a blank slate when I arrived at this board. Plus, you are what you eat. If you don’t like the way I post, you have only yourselves to blame.

Nah, you’ve been a tool pretty much from day 1.

[Duke]

@Starving_Artist

I was a blank slate when I arrived at this board. Plus, you are what you eat. If you don’t like the way I post, you have only yourselves to blame.

Which of the members of this board told you that all social problems in America were caused by liberal ideology? I’m dying to find out the answer to that.

[Little_Nemo]

I think to a significant degree it’s just to keep it from appearing that the leftie side is accepted as the correct one for lack of opposition.

The left has a number of representatives on this board so the few loud and crazy ones get drowned out by the more numerous quiet but reasonable ones. Representatives on the right are fewer in number here and don’t have that luxury. You run the risk of convincing people that conservatives are generally irrational and their points of view can therefore be dismissed. If you truly want to set yourself up as a voice of opposition to the general drift of this board, you’d be better off working on getting people to respect your opinions even if they don’t agree with them.