AA: Good or bad?

I am troubled that Steppers go WAY out of their way to insist that AA is not religious. So what if it is? Just admit it, already. The entire idea of a ‘higher power’ is metaphysical.

Whether you consider Allah or a doorknob to be your HP, you are still depending on a force from without to do your quitting for you. (Of course, no one and nothing other than oneself can keep your arm from lifting that bottle to your lips, but I’ll let the Steppers have their delusion if it keeps them from drinking)

If you have a drug problem (alcohol=drug) and need help, but can’t stomach the idea of giving up rationalism along with your booze, try Rational Recovery, SMART, SOS, or LifeRing.

Check out this guy too…

www.peele.net

Sigh. I really didn’t want to get any deeper into this question, but I feel compelled to say a few things.

I go to meetings. I don’t like to admit this. Not even my parents know. I go to NA, but have been to AA when there were no NA meetings available. The two are based on the same principals anyway.

When I first started attending meetings (No one made me go, BTW.), I was a little put off by the “Higher Power” talk and the semi-Christian overtone of some things I heard.

At the time, I was a practicing Pagan.

Very nearly everyone I talked to at those meetings told me that I did NOT have to be a Christian, no one was going to try to convert me and I would get just as much out of the program as anyone else, whatever religion I was. No one was shocked or confrontational. No one tried to “save” me.

The basics of the AA and NA programs were created and put together by people who were Christians. They found that church, God, religion and moderation were not enough for many people. It was those people that they set out to help. They DID incorporate the concept of a “Higher Power” into their program. At times, this is referred to as God. But they usually use the words “the God of your/my/our understanding.” This leaves the phrase open to ALL and ANY religious beliefs.

If you have no religious beliefs, it is simply understood to be whatever you believe can help you stay clean/sober that is OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF. It can be the love of your friends, the support of the group, your dog or any other damn thing you choose.

In my experience, people who try to push a particular religion in meetings are strongly looked down on, not as people, but for bringing specific religions into the rooms. They are almost always cut off when they begin to share in a “witnessing” fashion. This is usually followed by an explanation which basically states that we do not bring up particular religious belief systems in meetings. Not to say that some people don’t do it. But most members don’t appreciate it. I have not found it to be AT ALL the majority. There are always persistant jerks, of course. What they bring up after the meeting is all on them.

As far as personalities go, AA and NA are like any other large group of people. There are always some manipulators, jerks, assholes and self-righteous bastards. Both groups have a saying. It says that we (the group) must “place principal before personality.” This is taken to mean that we try to treat everyone as equal and deserving of love and compassion. Everyone there is working through a problem. It is harder for some, and “some are sicker than others.”

Whether or not the AA and NA programs work is completely up to the individual. I have seldom seen anyone who really wanted to get clean/sober fail in the program. I think that if things are bad enough, any recovery program is bound to do some good. If you go into meetings with an attitude, sit there without listening to a word, refuse all suggestion and advice and take no action to get better, OF COURSE IT WON’T WORK! This would be the same for any recovery program. NA and AA both admit that some people need outside help, like psychiatrists or therapy. Many members do those things as well.

All that beings said- If you have found that you don’t like AA or NA, that fine. Just get SOME kind of help. Very few addicts or alchoholics get and stay clean/sober alone.

I should also add that I myself often complain about and doubt the usefulness or necessity of meetings. It is in the very nature of an addict to be resistant to change. I have questioned whether or not I am an addict as well. This is also normal. I have come to the conclusion that, even if I am not, there is not a single thing in AA or NA that could hurt me. Most of what they teach would be useful to anyone.

Doctor Goo Fee, I should also add that as far as a "Higher Power"s ability to keep you clean goes, I have known very few members who believe that anyone other than themselves is keeping them clean. It is frequently and passionately mentioned that the only one who can keep you from drinking or doing drugs is YOU. The concept of “Higher Power” is simply used as a way of believing that something loves you and wants you to do better for yourself. Many addicts/alchoholics come in really hating themselves. It is hard to get yourself well if you don’t value your life. The concept is to give people like this a motivation to believe that they have value. There is a phrase “love you until you can love yourself.” A lot of it sounds cheesy, if you have never been in that position. But believe me, if you feel that you are lower than parasite shit, even the love of a doorknob helps.

I’m eternally grateful to the people in NA. My life was headed in a very, very bad direction, and I owe my current happiness and probably survival to them.

That being said, I’ve been clean for over seven years, and I haven’t been to a meeting in the past five.

There are several reasons for that. First off, my life no longer involves drugs or alcohol. Nobody in my life does any more than have a beer every few weeks, or smoke cigarettes. When I went to meetings, I realized, I was exposed to more drugs and more drug-related conversation in one hour than I could get into in weeks of ordinary life.

Secondly, after a couple of years of the program, I started going intermittently. I immediately found out that if I missed a few meetings, some near-stranger would assume that I had relapsed, and not believe a word I said to the contrary, every single meeting I attended. I started feeling guilty about going to meetings, even though I’d been clean for years.

Last, I don’t want my life to be all about drugs anymore. I have a good life, a boyfriend who loves me, and all sorts of things that make me happier than I ever was when I was using, and I completely understand the consequences of ever using anything again. And even so, the ?A groups that I went to insist that if you stop going to meetings, you’re going to use. That makes the program a life sentence. They may be right; I may have a predestined encounter with relapse waiting for me around the next corner. But I don’t think so; I believe that the program was a great starting place for a new life, but now I just need to get on with that life.

So thanks, and I hope not to see you later.

MrVisible, for my father, attending AA meetings regularly after years of sobriety was not so much about keeping him sober, but rather being there as a steady, experienced sober alcoholic to help the new guys coming in. I’m certainly not saying you’re wrong to not attend meetings any more; just that there’s more to it than attending meetings to stay clean. Many people (and my Dad was one of them) feel an obligation to stick around so they can give back what they were given.

As far as the people insisting that if you stop attending meetings, you will use again, perhaps they feel that way because that’s how it works most of the time. That doesn’t mean it will work that way for you, just that it’s pretty common.

Best wishes in your continued recovery!

EXCELLENT posts Hyperjes.

AA is not perfect, there are a lot of know it all assholes who get bored and have to stick their noses into your business, but there are many wonderful people who will do anything to help you stay sober.

And even the assholes understand that sobriety, not perfection, is what is important. And I mean PHYSICAL sobriety, the kind where you aren’t driving a car shit faced drunk on the LA freeways like I used to do.

I haven’t done that in almost 30 years THANKS TO AA. And just for that fact, that one less drunk is on the road threatening YOUR life proves that AA is a very good organization.

I’m not an alcoholic and I don’t attend AA or any of its offshoots (ironically, I’m drinking a beer as I write this, from a six-pack I bought in February-- help, I need a meeting! :slight_smile: ), but I believe in that higher power. All it means is that I don’t have to tie down every loose end and I don’t have to worry about everything in the world. It helps me with my stress and I could see how it would help an alcoholic avoid taking that first drink.

Thank you, djf750. Congrats on your 30 years! That always amazes me. It’s longer than I have been alive. (Please don’t take that the wrong way. I don’t mean to make you feel old.) It blows my mind to see that people can stay totally clean/sober that long. Maybe someday! Only 25 years to go…:wink:

This seems to contradict both the first step (We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable) and the third (Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him). If you are powerless over alcohol, how can you be the only one who can keep yourself from drinking? Similarly, if you turn your will and life over to God isn’t it, in fact, God who is then keeping you clean?

Dr. Goo - It’s not a “one-time” decision. It’s a decision that one must make on a regular basis. By “making a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him” I become empowered. But in order to get to that point, one must admit that by oneself, one does not have that power over alcohol/drugs/SDMB/whatever.

So, the decision is yours to make. Thus, it is up to you to make that decision. It’s not a magic wand. You know how I stay clean? I stay clean by not putting mood/mind altering substances in my body. That’s how to stay clean. Serenity takes a bit more than all that. I find that I am less likely to put said mood/mind altering substances in my body when I have some good, orderly direction. Hence, the 12 steps. The 12 steps don’t keep me clean, they present me with an opportunity to do some work on myself. Work that I cannot do when I am getting high. In fact, I got high because I really didn’t want to do that work. When the drugs “stopped working” that work still needed to be done (and I ain’t finished yet, it’s a life-long task). The more of that work I do, the less likely I am to get high. Why? Because I like myself much more when I use the tools in front of me to learn who I am.

So, the short answer to your question is no. God does not keep me clean. I keep clean by not using drugs. God gave me free will, and I exercise it on a regular basis. Sometimes to wacky effect. :stuck_out_tongue:

Dr. Goo Fee, d_redguy pretty much covered it. But I’ll try to add what I can. When you turn your will and life over, you are pretty much saying “Help me do what you would want me to do.” (Again, this could be what “the doorknob” wants you to do.) That doesn’t mean that you don’t take personal responsibility for your actions. It’s the same as saying to a friend “Remind me to go to the dentist on Tuesday.” If your friend reminds you and you say “Fuck you. I’m not going.” there isn’t much else your friend can do. So you are asking your Higher Power for strength and support, as well as advice, in a way. But your H.P. can’t do it for you. When you say that you are powerless, you are saying that you haven’t been able to manage your use, so you need help. Most people try to quit by themselves before they come to AA/NA. It is when that fails that they realize they can’t do it alone. That your life has become unmanageable is pretty obvious by then. I hope that helps.

If AA works for you, by all means use it, and use it often. I am VERY glad for you and wish you a long and easy recovery. The rest of this post is really addressed to those other people whom have not shared your experience.

There is another type of recovery program that has been around for a few years and has helped a number of people. Rational Recovery is more focused on the individual and making choices that are in their best interest and on personal responsibility (without self-defeating blame). This is based out of Rational Emotive Therapy and a few of the differences between this approach and AA are "You are not “powerless” over your addiction and you do not "have to depend " on some outside source to pull you from your addiction.

One other thing, if you have been sober for two years and you screw up and drink for five minutes, RR recognizes this as a unfortunate incident that you DO NOT wish to repeat but when AA looks at the same situation, you are busted back down to beginner recovering person and for that moment have wasted those two years of sobriety. You were still sober for the two years but now that sobriety means nothing. All you divorced parents go tell your children since your marriage failed that they are meaningless and insignificant. The resulting good from a choice is NOT cancelled out by making a poor choice later, that just prevents more good from being produced at that very moment of the poor choice. The whole I have been sober longer than you aspect “can” be abused and also I have noticed among some of my patients that there is sometimes a competitive aspect to see who was the bigger drunk in their previous wretched life.

While there are certainly physiological components to addiction (depending on substance) the emotional aspect is more crippling and longer lasting than most physical drug effects. If you are interested check out this book “When AA doesn’t work for You”. It may have been written by Albert Ellis, if not him someone from the RET institute wrote it. VG book.

I wish all of you success in any recovery you may be working.
There is always hope for tomorrow, but you have to get out of bed to harvest it.

Take care,
Kaiser Willy

Thanks for the info, KaiserWilly! And welcome to the SDMB!!