Did you mean 90 in 90?
This too is sad, and I did not mean to convey she wasn’t ready, I have no doubt from what you have said that she was ready and at her rock bottom. Unfortunately, her sponsor seems from what you say, to be in the wrong, horridly so, if you ask me. Any sponsors should go over the science of addiction, and they should be steering you clear of what trigger’s bought you to the rooms by helping you recognize them…
It pains me to know there are sponsors out there who are drill sargents, and bible thumpers, I know a few. At least in my circle of meetings there are non.
Joe we don’t convert anyone, people are free to stay or go as they wish. Even if a parole officer or a court orders AA, and the person must have the chair of the meeting sign a form stating they were there, after there orders run out they can chose to stay or leave, I have seen many stay, and have seen some go.
Have you ever seen anyone decide to stop drinking through the help of AA?
People are not free to stay or go as they wish if the government orders it. Would a judge order a Muslim shoplifter to go to Jewish temple everyday for 6 months in order to learn the spirituality of “Thou shalt not steal”?
I have seen people who quit drinking while going through the motions of AA which is great. Did God come down and cure them of the obsession to drink as is promised through AA? I don’t believe so.
You’ve got to read the whole thread…You are missing completely what I have stated up thread, as your last two sentences make completely no sense in the context of anything I have said. And to say " God came down and cured them blah…blah…" IS a waste of bandwidth as no one even insinuated that…
This is from Chapter 4 ( We Agnostics ) of the big book
"Thus was our friend’s cornerstone fixed in place. No later vicissitude has shaken it. His alcoholic problem was taken away. That very night, years ago, it disappeared. Save for a few brief moments of temptation the though of drink has never returned; and at such times a great revulsion has risen up in him. Seemingly he could not drink even if he would. God had restored his sanity.
What is this but a miracle of healing? Yet its elements are simple. Circumstances made him willing to believe. He humbly offered himself to his Maker then he knew.
Even so has God restored us all to our right minds. To this man, the revelation was sudden. Some of us grow into it more slowly. But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.
When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!"
Yes, the milestones are 1st 24 hrs, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, 4 months - up til a year, then you get the bronze yearly medallions.
Those first 90days are the toughest… then it is sort of novel not drinking and watching your body thank you for such, you go through lot’s of changes, physically and emotionally.
This long term abstinence then fall off the wagon could be attributed to not following a program. Doesn’t matter which one. Programs help, no matter which one you choose, they all have merits. And in my experience it’s easier when not done alone, and easier still when you have other people who have gone through the same things you have to bounce things off of.
The problem is that the religious stuff is on nearly every page of their publication. It’s at every meeting, in the slogans. For them to promote self-honesty to the members and then deny the religiousity of their organization is, to me, well…questionable.
This isn’t the pit, so I’ll hold off on being too harsh of this… perhaps deliberate misrepresentation of what I said, but I never said anything about it being wrong that many people feel AA helped them. I’ve said this repeatedly, in fact. People in AA can recover.
However, as I’ve pointed out AA is a) not demonstrably more effective than anything else, including no treatment at all and b) its teachings about alcohol are both out of whack with addiction science and distort and often confuse the larger debate in our society about drug addiction. That’s the core of the point I’m making.
Does Pentacostalism work as far as making people feel like they have a sense of purpose and so forth? Of course. If people want to be Pentacostals more power to them. But the Pentacostal view on geology is not something that should dominate the discussion of geology.
This debate has become what we call in French “A dialogue of the deaf”.
I honestly think I and the others cannot explain to Kalhoun and the others how we feel, how it works. And I think it is time I stopped wasting my time and theirs.
For example, people keep insisting that the “powerless” step is a denigration and a put-down when it is nothing but my starting point that has led to my new life.
Kalhoun and others keep posting these ideas that strike me as misconceptions and misunderstandings about AA, and no matter how much we try to correct them, they continue to insist.
I am an AA member, and an atheist/agnostic. I know scores of people in AA who have the sanme opinions. I have never heard one of them say that he was being forced to believe anything he didn’t want to.
I tried not drinking on my own for 20 years and failed time after time. I had already admitted I was powerless BY MYSELF before I walked through the doors.
I came to AA, found that I could stop drinking by following the program, taking what I wanted from it, and undertaking a lifelong journey of remaking myself into a better person. Not drinking is just the beginning. Changing myself and improving myself day after day is a cornorstone of the happiness I have known. And I am still an atheist/agnostic.
I have been sober for 16 years and I know hundreds of other AAs who have been sober for even longer. My sponsor just celebrated 25 years. One guy celebrated 45 years in our town recently.
So, Kalhoun and others, frankly, all I say is that we BOTH have lives too valuable to waste them going round and round and round with the same arguments in different forms.
I wish Kalhoun and the others all possible happiness and prosperity. I will keep going to my AA meetings and enjoying my life.
This is the end of my contribution on this thread. Thank you all for the nice discussion, though.
Good points Kalhoun, but to me, it is even worse than the group’s denial about its religiosity.
The part about “take what you want and leave the rest” becomes an insurmountable problem when you can’t even “take” the First (and most fundamental) Step. Even though it can work for some people to practice the advanced mental gymnastics of passing one’s own choices and responsibilities off to a rock, doorknob or ketchup bottle, many of the more stringently rational of us believe that it is our own power–not an Invisible Pink Unicorn’s, (you can read that as Vishnu’s or Apollo’s if you prefer) that prevents us from putting booze to our lips.
To be sure, the support of other people–whether in professional group therapy or amateur AA therapy–can make a big difference in a person’s ability to find the strength in themselves to achieve sobriety. Nonetheless, it is ultimately the strength in themselves that is making the sobriety possible. And the group support clearly needn’t come from a religiously oriented group.
A quick personal observation that no one need comment on (unless they wish too, of course): I am always amazed by the defensive posture of some people when others make reasoned (be it right or wrong) arguments against the efficacy of AA, or for the existence of religious components in AA, or both.
Please provide some sort of cite that factually proves AA “works.” Because, as I posted upthread and was ignored, the facts don’t support your assertion in any meaningful way vis-a-vis any other sort of treatment. Specifically, treatments that deal with both the phychological and medical without the "Higher “Power” bullshit.
Now then, read that quote a couple of times, especially the part I highlighted, and come back here and tell us with a straight faith that it “works.” Sure, it may have for you and the others than fit into that 5% success rate, but please, I’d hardly cite said ridiculous percentages as proof that AA “works.”
OTOH, I’ll also repeat what I said in my previously, if you’re part of that 5%, well then, bully for you. But please – and I say this as someone who’s attended more than his share of AA meetings* – don’t try to sell me on the idea that AA isn’t anything other than an offshoot of both religious indoctrination (admittedly, of wide scope on the surface) and the simple psychological method of group therapy. I’m very glad we have some of those 5%'s on-board and wish them continued abstinence, but please, don’t piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.
*Creepy and completely ineffective for me. I’ve dealt with, when and how I drink, pretty much on my own with the odd consultation with a therapist or two. Guess I could claim a 100% success rate using my method. Incredibly enough, I have no higher power, sponsor, or 12 step program to adhere to. Nope, no sir, the power to stop/moderate my drinking had nothing to do with sky-pixies and/or stern “sponsors” who did little more than try to shame the hell out of me and convince me it was “their way or the highway.” Besides beeing somewhat of a rebel even at my age, I fucking hate “group-think.” Never mind the fact that the whole “higher power” stchik reeks of some sort of undefined witnessing.
No thanks Simply not for me – my alchol compsumtion is right where I want it and very much under control. I can go for weeks at a time as a complete teatotadler just as I can go into a few nights of excesses. Normally my body and mind are my barometers. I simply don’t feel the need to tell any number of strangers – some of which are obviously already impaired by their boozing --why and how I drink. My privacy is just that, my privacy.
“It works if you work it.” No shit, Sherlock. 'cept that I have my own ways of working things out and none of them involve “higher powers” of any kind. In my life, I am my own god – with all the good, bad and indifferent behavior that carries. I like to keep that way as opposed to revealing it to a bunch of strangers whose only communality is a fondness for excess. Be it drugs or alcohol, or whatever new fad avails itself with twelve-stepping programs.
Know your facts. And at least try to know thyself. Therein lies the “cure.” Or it does for me anyway. I rather like rationality and I simply can’t see myself worshiping a pet-rock as my higher-power.
Pretty much all I have to say on the topic, thus don’t expect many/any replies from me. Like I said, I’ve heard all the BS before – not only have I developed a thick skin in the process, but I am sure AA’s cult-like methods are simply not for moi.
What say we raise our glasses and toast to all of us that have reached our goals no matter what the method? Then gain, I have a hard time toasting for a 5% recovery rate.
Wish all you problem-drinkers out there that you find your own way to deal with said problem. Again, AA is certainly not a cure-all program, but if it works for you, stick to it. I’ll even sell you a higher powered pet-rock.
I agree 100%. I find it baffling to see how AAers continue to say it isn’t a religious group when it presents itself AS a religious group. They don’t say you have to be a believer in order to get sober (we already knew that), or be a believer to attend, but that doesn’t make it a non-religious organization. It’s religion that some people choose to ignore.
AA doesn’t “work” or everyone who walked through the doors and climbed the steps would be sober. Their failure rate is as high or higher than other methods because most people who attempt their program find their approach to group therapy silly and distasteful. If some members don’t see it that way, fine. If they find sobriety in spite of the organization’s methods, that’s fine, too. But there is no proof that sobriety was achieved because of the “program”.
I hesitate to even call it a program because of the blatant contradictions laid out both by the organization and by those here who are defending it. If you can achieve sobriety without following the steps, as laid out by AA, then their program isn’t necessary in order to achieve sobriety! Duh! Take it or leave it! People “leave” it all the time – within or outside the group – and achieve sobriety!
By this inane logic, chemotherapy doesn’t work because people still die of cancer, insulin doesn’t work, because people still die of diabetes, and antibiotics don’t work, because peole still die of infection. Dial it back from 11, dude.
Heh-heh. Sorry…you will have to back up a blanket statement of the effectiveness of faith healing with more than a 5% success rate. Sobriety may have come while you were attending meetings, but if you don’t actually have to do what they outline in their program, you cannot attribute your sobriety to that program.
I tried to get out before, and I felt a sense of need to come back to this thread. As I sit here I wonder why I felt the need to come back. You know what, the statistics are right, 5% success rate.
How can one think it workd by reading that on a website? The long and the short of it is - you wouldn’t think it worked. And thats OK.
Religion? How can AA say they are not allied with any sect, denomination, politic, organization or institution and still say the Lords Prayer at the end of some meetings? Well this is what the AA says:
And this is what I have found to be true. This does not mean YOU find it to be true, or that AA works for everyone - 5% - obviously it doesn’t.
But the overhanging sense that some of you have taken on an almost crusade like stance against AA is Bollocks - especially some of you more seasoned dopers who “know” some of us posting here are not trying to win your attention or side in any sort of argument to gain more members.
Again I could care less if you agree with the tenents of AA or not, I don’t want to win a side - I just got caught up trying to defend an organization that has changed my life, and the lives of many people around me for the better. For the 95% of the people who try and leave, I wish you only the very best in your lives, be it moderately controling your drinking or complete abstinence, fair thee well.
Conversely, if you do feel the need to nit pick apart the organization then have at it. And to those who have had close familiy members who have tried and left I hope those members are of a healthy spirit today from what ever program they choose.
Phlospher, I think you’re missing what all the AA detractors are saying here. I don’t think there’s a person here (or on the planet) that begrudges your sobriety, no matter how you got there. We are simply saying that out of one side of its mouth, AA is saying it’s non-religious, when in fact it promotes religion while at the same time accepting non-believers into the fold.
In addition, there is no proof that what AA says or does is a remedy for alcoholism. The power of placebo, or group therapy, or emotional support are not unique to The Program, and in fact, those who find sobriety within AA do it often with no regard to that Program. There is nothing special about it that makes it any better than any other concentrated effort to abstain from alcohol. It happened to you in AA; it happened to another guy in jail; it happened to a woman via a talk with her boss; it happened to another at the Betty Ford Center. Still another just got bored and stopped on his own. Elevating its effectiveness above any other technique is simply inaccurate. Ignoring that some of its unprofessional, unorganized ideas are dangerous, is irresponsible.
I’m not saying you yourself are doing that necessarily (though it sounds like you are), but the World of Addiction Rehabilitation, coupled with our goddy society, does. And that is discriminatory and insulting and in my opinion, unethical.
I assume your kind thoughts were directed toward me. I’m sorry to say she died of alcoholism at the age of 42. I don’t blame AA; it was a complex case that required complex treatment. No single approach ever had a chance of working for her.
I will keep going to my AA meetings and enjoying my life.