I have heard it claimed by adherents of Alcoholics Anonymous that their group is not religious and therefore, it is no problem for the government (through the court system, usually) to force people to attend AA meetings (as opposed to more rational or secular programs like SMART, Rational Recovery, or Moderation Management).
I seems to me that since a key component (as I understand it) of their doctrine is the belief that a “higher power” will take care and control of your drinking woes, that the group is a religious one.
Well-practiced AA-ers will tell you that because the “higher power” can be anything you choose, that itis not a religious group at all.
I do not see how this precludes AA from being religious–Even if I choose my higher power to be Cookie Monster, or a vacuum cleaner, (rather than say, Jesus) I am still believing-in and summoning the help of a godlike figure to solve my drinking problems because, presumably, I either can’t figure them out for myself, or I choose not to take responsibility for them.
(NOTE: I know a guy who told his sponsor that his “HP” was HIMSELF… that didn’t go over so well. Apparently, it’s OK to ask for anything in the Universe to solve your drinking problem, but it’s NOT OK to rely on yourself!)
Is AA a religious group? Is it legal? (moral?) for courts to compel people to attend a religious program?
That said, you will hear the word ‘God’ in AA meetings. That is because every AA group is somewhat autonomous and if an individual says “God” when referring to their Higher Power, that’s their business. The big book of AA doesn’t say your higher power has to be a spiritual power, either. The step says “We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity”. That could be your survival instinct, your job, etc.
As a sometimes Deist/sometimes Atheist, I Don’t even talk about my higher power in 12-step recovery meetings if I can help it.
I started my thread first, THEN did a search for similar subjects. Turns out there already was a little on this subject… But I still wouldn’t mind hearing why anyone would NOT consider AA religious when God is mentioned in several of the 12 steps.
There has been at least one ruling by a federal court that an atheist cannot be compelled to attend AA meetings on First Amendment grounds, Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation. The original appellate decision (which upheld the federal district court’s ruling) summarizes some of the district court’s findings:
As an athiest who attended AA in the mid 80s and has been dry since October '86, I am sure AA has a substantial religious component. Seems like some folks easily confuse religious freedom with being able to choose any god you want.
For those who wish for a wholly non-religious alternative to AA, I recommend taking a look at Rational Recovery which not only takes a very different approach to AA but gives quite a few valid criticisms for why AA can be innefective and downright dangerous!
I am barely a social drinker myself, but I have several friends who went through Rational Recovery and have not touched a drop since.
Forcing an alcoholic to attend AA is unlikely to be successful, religious content aside. If a person sincerely wants to control alcohol, instead of having alcohol control him, AA is more likely to be successful, religious content aside.
To me, the answer is simple: Without AA, I would probably be dead. I am not a religious person, but I was so desparate for help that whatever religous content AA has simply did not concern me. The benefits, to me, far outweighed any reservations I might have had concerning any religous content.
All discussion of the efficacy of AA aside, this statement shows an astonishing level of ignorance about the nature of addiction, DGF. Unfortunately, it is shared by the vast majority of society, who persist in believing that alcoholism is a deficiency of will power, and that alcoholics could quit if they just tried. Until we start treating alcoholism as a medical problem, we will never be rid of its tragedies such as drunk driving, fetal alcohol syndrome and the destruction of families. No amount of stigmatizing the alcoholic, or pretending there is nothing we can do, will reduce the real and societal devastation of this disease. Please, do a little research before you just wash your hands of a problem and refuse to take any positive steps to correct it. AA may not be the only way to treat alcoholism, and it may not even be the best, but it works for millions of people.
I agree with you to a point, <b>Fear Itself</b>, however I think that AA takes this way too far. Yes, alcoholism is a medical problem. Yes, people who have it are sick and need treatment.
BUT… if you remove them entirely from fault as AA does, suggesting that they cannot help their problem, it removes willpower from the situation entirely. People who go back on the wagon are treated gently as if it was entirely not their fault when in actuality, they ARE partly to blame. I think you will find that alcoholics who are treated sternly when they go back on the wagon tend to relapse less often.
Arken; People who go back on the wagon are treated gently …
That depends on what you call gently. Sure, you’re not yelled at, but the guilt bestowed on your already weak self-confidence, is enough to either take another drink, or jump in front of a train.
The Ryan; Believe what you will sweatheart, but try to understand some scientific points:
" The reason why alcoholism is a progressively debilitating disease is due to the chemistry of the alcohol metabolism in the human body. In normal drinkers alcohol is broken down into acetaldehyde in the liver along with carbon dioxide and water. But in the alcoholic, who has a genetic predisposition, the liver produces so much acetaldehyde that the organ cannot produce enough enzyme to eliminate it. The excess acetaldehyde travels to the brain where it forms THIQ (a morphine-like substance). THIQ is a suppressor chemical that suppresses endorphin. The more an addict uses, the more THIQ is produced"
<I>You can find a lot with any searchmachine. Don’t be so naïve to think you can cure an alcoholic by telling him to just quit drinking.
Forgive me for harping on this one, but as a clinically depressed person who went through the first twenty years of life being told he was “just lazy”, this one strikes more than a little close to home. Attaching blame to the actions of a sick person will never help them get better.
The problem with trying to rely on yourself for the power to stop drinking is that if an alcoholic were able to rely on self-will to get sober, they would have no need for AA or any other recovery program. I have been sober for 11 years and have met many, many alcoholics who have described their efforts to stop drinking on their own, with no success. It’s important to be able to separate the opinions of AA members from the philosophy of AA itself. The Big Book does say that AA is not the only path to recovery, though you may hear AA members asserting that it is the only way.
Most alcoholics find themselves utterly unable to stop drinking by their own means because addiction is both a physical and a mental problem. The “Big Book” of Alcoholics Anonymous speaks about both the “mental obsession,” which is the mental aspect where the addict thinks obsessively about the next drink or fix, and the “phenomenon of craving,” which kicks in after putting alcohol or drugs into one’s body and causes one to be unable to control the quantity of drink or drug taken.
The reliance on a “higher power” is in no way to be construed as being relieved of responsibility for one’s actions. If you read the 12 steps, numbers 8 and 9 deal with cleaning up the messes from the alcoholic’s drunken past.
As to the propriety of the courts ordering people into AA meetings, AA itself has no opinion on outside matters. My personal opinion, speaking only for myself, is that I have mixed feelings on the subject. I have known people who got sober through being court-ordered to meetings, so it clearly can do some good, but I also think that it violates the tradition of “attraction rather than promotion” to a certain extent.
Anyone can quit using alcohol. Just stop blaming your problem on other things (genetics, other people, whatever) and take control over the nerves and muscles that move that glass towards your lips. NO ONE ELSE CAN DO THIS!!!
No one else contols your body but YOU. Not your sponsor, not your cult buddies, not your cat, doorknob, stick of gum, Jesus, Satan or whatever else your higher power is.
Anyone can quit for good. It may be very, very difficult for some people. But it is possible. It happens every day.
For serious problem drinkers, especially those of a more logical bent (Or really anyone who no longer believes in Santa Claus) I’d suggest a program like Rational Recovery. I understand it works very well for many people. Best of all, it has a rational basis, not a mystical one, and once you decide to quit for life, you’re though with it.