because nothing in AA meets this definition, not even close IMO
There are concepts in AA that are unquestionably believed and revered by followers. That these concepts are generally (I imagine it varies) not thought to have come from the higher power but only to speak truthfully about a higher power is what might distinguish them from commonly known sacred dogma.
Oh, to respond to another part of your message, AHunter3, not because I disagree completely with the feeling behind what you’re saying, because you do make sense – but there are particulars I find very different, in my experience with AA meetings:
Again, my experience is limited to my southern Oregon small-town community:
Hell, yes. We do welcome folks with that opinion: I figure, if they’re coming to our meetings, and consider themselves a normal drinker, well, there must be some more serious problem that they’re either actually experiencing, or that they suspect they might get to that point. And if he does get to that point, at least he knows of a place to go, and people from whom he might learn how to live a happy sober life.
He, too, could wake up some morning, thinking, “Holy shit. I’ve crossed a line I never thought I’d cross.”
Hey, if he truly can “drink in moderation”, our hats are off to him, so to speak… but why in the world is he wasting his time in our rooms? Hmm.
Sidebar:
You know, some folks think that sober alcoholics condemn drinkers. Sure, there are some members who do – they’re so calcified in their own experience that they can’t feel safe without thinking that alcohol itself is evil. And there are others of us who can recognize that, while we can’t drink like others, we can still enjoy being around folks who drink, and not feel cheated because we’re not them. I think one of the wonderful things about our AA fellowship is the individualism within. We have hard-liners, we have liberal folks, it’s kind of like the rest of the world…
Doesn’t that just boil down to AA being a religious organization if one chooses to define it as such, and not if one doesn’t choose to define it as such?
Personally, I figured the “higher power” thing isn’t too much different than army basic training’s concept of breaking the individual down (i.e. removing all the psychological impediments that might prevent the recruit from making a good soldier) and building him back up into, from the army’s perspective, something better. This doesn’t make the army a church or a cult, though I have seen people on this message board who have tried to define it as such.
Well, yeah, but so does everything. Of course this will depend on your definition of religion, but I cannot see any meaningful distinction between AA and religions.
There is the lack of rejection of other faiths, certainly a very unusual thing for a religion to not even imply.
This is a personal anecdote so please take it only as such.
A few years ago my brother was convicted of his second DUI. (No sympathy is asked for nor given by me. I love my brother but truly despise the callous way he has repeatedly driven while impaired)
Part of his sentencing was to go to AA meetings. Once there he found that he was pushed into acknowledging a higher power before he could complete the program and thus finish his sentence. Being that both he and I are Antitheists this struck me as odd that the “state” could force any religious belief of any kind on a citizen. Belief in a higher power IS religion.
As a punishment it failed completely to accomplish anything with his behavior. In the end real and definite punishment was the only thing that helped when his license was taken away from him for 6 years. And yes he deserved it. In fact in my opinion he and all DUI/DWI drivers deserve far more. But then Im picky that way.
I was in a cutting edge study run by Harvard Medical School for 18 months up until about a year ago. Harvard had its own educational classes, group theray, and one on one counseling for those accepted into the study. However, half of the study was strongly encouraging participants to attend AA meetings and then they tracked all this via a computer program. In the educational classes, they emphasized that anything they did was to supplement, not replace, AA (secular alternatives were allowed) and that there was nothing they could do alone that would beat AA’s success rate.
I say your statement above is bunk especially since there isn’t a purely medical treatment that can induce long-term remission of alcoholic behavior. The most common medical procedure is clinical detox because alcohol withdrawal can be very uncomfortable and even life threatening. That usually lasts about 2 - 5 days and relapse rates with that alone are abysmal at well over 90% in the first year. All other treatments that incorporate one-on-one therapy or short-term group therapy have abysmal relapse rates as well but it is a daily battle and people tend to give in especially if their life is still screwed up.
Antabuse is a medical treatment that causes an alcoholic to have serious allergic reactions when they drink. The way around that is easy. People just stop taking it because they either want to drink or they just don’t want the risk. There are some drugs like naltrexone that reduce the desire to drink but they don’t eliminate it. There isn’t a medical alternative that does what you say.
If you want to know why AA is more successful than other things, it dawned on me a while ago. It is a grassroots organization that is absolutely everywhere almost all of the time. There are over 3000 meetings a week in the Boston area alone and you can find them close by morning, noon, and night. You can find them in towns of any size when you are travelling. Most people don’t have any idea because AA doesn’t advertise (it is almost completely decentralised) and they don’t want your money. It is one of the few organizations I know of that is like that.
AA isn’t a cult IMHO but it does have some characteristics of one. Members are usually outgoing and interested in seeing you come back and the meetings and the messages tend to be very repetitive. That is its strength. People tend to take comfort in knowing that they can just walk into a meeting anywhere in the world and instantly know what is going on and can participate. The repetitive messages are there to keep a constant reminder of what happens when drinking gets out of control.
You can’t lump all AA meetings together. They have different formats and themes and those are denoted in the directory. I never liked Big Book meetings for example because the BB was written in the 1930’s and hasn’t really been updated. Open discussion and speaker meetings can be informative and helpful although I rarely go these days.
I don’t believe AA is a religion because there aren’t any leaders and nobody tries to make you believe something of a religious nature. I knew one guy that had his motorcycle as his Higher Power. His idea was that he loved his motorcycle more than anything else and he couldn’t ride it anymore if he got drunk and wrecked it or got a DUI. That seemed fine to everyone.
One of the central problems with AA is that it is not well grounded in real work on addiction and the brain, but rather on a core concept of sin and salvation. The program may not itself be a religion, but the mirroring of the distinctively Christian pattern is pretty clear.
Speaking of the Big Book, it’s probably relevant to note that it not only roundly rejects non-belief, it literally promises death (via failing to control alcoholism) to those who do not cease to be unbelievers.
Here’s some representative quotes:
For a non-religion, AA seems awfully concerned about making sure you are religious.
As has been often noted, don’t forget that these sorts of ideas are often being preached at a 1) captive audience (court ordered attendance) and 2) people in some of the weakest, most desperate times of their lives.
Complete what program? All twelve steps? I have never heard of a court who could know with any certainty what steps the drunk had or had not completed. In my experience, all the court does is require you to attend meetings until the term of your probation is completed. Working the 12 steps is a lifelong process for most AA members, and many never complete them. But some manage to stay sober and discover something about themselves along the way that gives them the strength to go on without drinking. The value of the journey is not reaching the destination, it is what you experience along the way.
Also note that most recent comparative studies find that, surprisingly, it doesn’t seem to matter if you use AA, another program, or no program at all.
So if I say, “If you don’t like comedy with rough language, don’t go see Redd Foxx.” going to see Redd Foxx is a religion?
Those who want to regard AA as a religion are free to do so. However, that belief is based on half-truth, anecdotes by individuals such as those who were sent to AA by a court. It might interest you to know that the great majority of AA members regard such conditions of probation as worse than useless. Someone who doesn’t want to be there is of no use to AA since the whole idea is voluntary membership. Of course not all AA members feel this way. You will find evangelists and fundamentalists in every group. And oh yes, no one is forced to go to AA because of a drunk driving conviction. Doing so is a condition of probation and you are not required to accept probation. You can always do the time.
The thing about AA is that it is a program of individual recovery. I am there so that others can help me, not for me to help them. And all the others do help. Those who stay sober prove it can be done. Those who cycle in and out remind me of what the bad side is like.
Absolute nonsense. AA does not accept money from any outside source. Might there be an occasional group that does? Sure. You can find people who make mistakes everywhere. But accepting outside finds is against the rules.
And again, if you don’t like AA, don’t go. If you want to regard it as a religion, do so. Neither of those harms AA in any way.
I just made a quick call to my brother and got the facts from him. In order to be removed from his probation he had to have a letter from the “leader” [his term] of his AA meetings that stated he had complied with ALL 12 steps. However one thing may be different than most meetings. He said that the AA program he had been put in was for people who had been convicted of alcohol related crimes. Mostly DUI/DWI as well as some assaults and drunk and disorderly charges. I have no idea how an AA meeting of this nature may differ from one that is comprised of voluntary members.
I personally have never had a need to participate in any such meetings so can not say with any certainty how any operate beyond what was related to me by my brother. I do however believe his recounting of the pressure he was under to “acknowledge” a higher power.
Some here have related that the higher power need not be a “God” but could be a motorcycle or other inanimate object. I still see this as deifying that object in some way. Not a thought Im comfortable with when it is a state run government telling you that you have no choice.
No, it means Redd Foxx is comedy with rough language.
AA isn’t meant to be punishment, although I suppose to an alcoholic it would certainly seem that way. Hard to say - is your brother an alcoholic? As a practical matter, maybe a little “old time religion” would have done your brother some good, thus avoiding the 6 year suspension of his license… I think this is a good example of that.
I’m just not seeing this is as a legitimate problem, whatsoever, to hard-core drunks. How is anyone harmed, esp. one with alcohol abuse, by going to an AA meeting or two? Have you any experience with a true alcoholic? It’s one thing to damage oneself - a sort of slow motion suicide, really - but alcoholics affect everyone around them - and not favorably. AA has been a - dare I say it? real blessing to not only the drunk, but their families. Further, they aren’t espousing any particular flavor of religion, and in any event - if “these sorts of ideas that are often being preached” keep someone out of the gutter and back in amongst the living, how is that a bad thing again?
And you are free to choose it or not. AA is a program that includes a “higher power” which I was and am free to choose or reject and still remain a member. I reject it, have never accepted it, other members know this and I am still welcomed at meetings when I choose to go.
If you regard AA as a religion fine. Whether or not you believie it AA would then have to be classified as a “cafeteria syle” religion. An array of methods are used by various members and you are absolutely free to choose all or any part, or make up your own.
Never said otherwise.
Why did you say “If you don’t like the idea of a “higher power” don’t go to AA.” when you reject the higher power and still go?
Works for me.
I stated it badly. The intent was to say that if the idea of a higher power is so distasteful as to interfere with recovery then AA is not for you.
Quite possibly. In my opinion I would say yes, but Im not a medical professional so would not want to go further than to present my opinion.
No I think that when it came down to it (for him) religion had no effect on his behavior. It was a tangible, quantifiable punishment that in fact changed his behavior. Coupled with the threat of future more severe punishment for further offences.
But that is a debate for another thread. My point here was only to give a single example of how AA pushed a “religious” belief on my brother in his personal experience.
That isn’t most. It is one study that wasn’t even done in the U.S. (Italy). One study almost always means little in science and the way that studies and statistics work, single studies cannot prove negative results (no differences between groups). Furthermore, some respected American academics from Harvard and Columbia are quoted as saying that they don’t believe the results because there research has already supported some of the AA techniques.