erislover—blacks in Massachusetts speaking a language that sounds something like French? I would bet anything that they are Cape Verdeans speaking Portuguese or a Portuguese-based creole. I knew a Cape Verdean once and he had lived in Massachusetts.
anyone???
BTW, really good stuff so far, I’m learnin’ I am…
As far as I can tell, the foreign languages spoken by immigrants have had little to no recent impact on SEV. Immigrants who cannot speak English are essentially cut off from mainstream society, and immigrants who do speak English speak it when interacting with SEV speakers. There are regions of the country with a large enough Spanish-speaking population to have local linguistic impact, but this has not reached the American mainstream.
so, no Blade Runner yet.
Okay, continue discussing the other stuffs. (thanks Lamia)
so, no Blade Runner yet.
Okay, continue discussing the other stuffs. (thanks Lamia)
When you’re feeling less sarcastic, Lamia, would you mind answering these questions?:
Do some foreigners work very hard to acquire fluency in English, and others work less hard? Is there a consequent difference in their fluency?
Why then should someone raised in a Black English context have different criteria applied to them?
I was trying to distiunguish between two meanings of “laziness” being used here interchangibly. The one I raised clearly involves the amount of effort people are willing to devote to acquiring fluency in standard English, and the other one (I think) being bandied about implied that Black English pronunciation and usage was simply a debased and lazy attempt at standard English.
But if it makes you feel superior to dismiss my contributions as racist or xenophobic, by all means procede.
pseudotriton ruber ruber writes:
> Do some foreigners work very hard to acquire fluency in
> English, and others work less hard? Is there a consequent
> difference in their fluency?
>
> Why then should someone raised in a Black English context
> have different criteria applied to them?
Should someone who grew up speaking English with a thick Southern (American) accent be expected to get rid of it and henceforth speak in a Midwestern accent? If not, why not? Are they just too lazy?
You’re comparing two things which are rather different. The accent of a non-native English speaker who only learns English as an adult is not caused by the speaker’s attempts to model his speech after other native speakers of his language who have also learned English as an adult. He is trying to sound like a native speaker of English. The resemblances of his English speech to the English speech of other speakers of his native language happens because they all know certain phonological and grammatical patterns from their native language which they have to consciously (and with some difficulty) suppress. Such speakers tend to slowly improve the resemblance of their speech to that of native English speakers of their region as the years go by, slower or faster depending on their ability to pick up languages (and on their desire not to be seen as a foreigner).
Occasionally there may be a large enough body of speakers of a given non-English language who live in a single region that some aspects of their native language will affect the accent of native speakers of that area, but mostly the effects of the accent will die out about a generation after those speakers are assimilated into the population.
AAVE is not the same thing. It’s a native dialect, and it’s no more surprising that a person who grew up speaking it should do so than a person should grow up speaking a Boston accent, or a New York one, or a Cajun one. It’s pretty arrogant to demand that they should speak Standard American accent at home or be considered lazy. It’s more reasonable to expect that they should speak a more standard accent at work or school, but even there the usual requirement is only that they make their grammar like Standard American English, not their pronunciation (so that their accent will be unnoticeable in their writing). Even the requirement that it’s standard grammar that’s important to learn, not pronunciation, is really just a culturally-based thing. Until fairly recently, it was absolutely necessary for any Briton who wanted to advance in certain professions to speak with Received Pronunciation (i.e., Standard British English). It didn’t matter if you were the most brilliant person in the world and used perfect standard grammar, if you spoke with a Cockney (or some other shunned regional) accent, you were simply out of consideration.
**
There’s more to learning a foreign language than just hard work. But feel free to ignore this if you wish to continue branding people in foreign countries with perfectly respectable languages of their own “lazy” for not speaking English fluently, although I must wonder how many foreign languages you speak fluently.
**
How many dialects can you speak with fluency? How much effort have you put into learning other dialects? Why should everyone on earth put special effort into learning to speak in a way that you can understand? AAVE speakers are subject to a different criteria alright, different criteria that would force them to abandon their native dialect entirely, something expected of the speakers of no other American English dialect that I am aware of.
The ability to speak multiple dialects is a useful, valuable, and admirable one. It’s a skill people would do well to acquire, for their own advantage. But a failure to acquire this ability is not laziness. In the particular case of AAVE speakers it can be attributed primarily to a lack of proper instruction, with various social pressures also having an influence.
A) You’re answering questions I asked by asking other questions, not responding to mine.
B) I’m not comparing anything. I’m asking questions. Lamia introduced the comparison.
C) I’m not demanding anything of the kind. I wasn’t discusssing how people talk at home; I was intending to discuss how they interact with others outside their own culture.
If it’s a foriegn language, which its speakers insist is to be privileged (as no other foreign language is in this country) on equal footing with standard English, good luck to them. If it’s not a foreign language but a dialect of English which they insist on speaking throughout U.S. culture, good luck to them again. I will, however, attempt to extricate myself as soon as possible from a conversation with someone from a minority culture who prefers as to impose his culture’s language on the vast majority instead of troubling to learn the mainstream language. This may not be laziness, but arrogance, solipsism, foolishness, provincialism, etc. But to return to my point, there are two separate connotations of “lazy” in use in this conversation–
- applied to people who, for whatever reason, refuse to switch codes to talk standard English when in mixed cultural groups
and
- applied to people TRYING to switch codes but, because they’re not knowledgable or not trying hard enough, failing to switch adequately.
It’s a simple distinction I was trying to make. As I wrote above, you can try to make this a conversation about racism, xenophobia, or arrogance, but I’m not very interested in persuing those digressions.
Thanks, Lamia. The punk thing was a rather poor example, but I am just trying to wrap my head around the idea of language seperation.
Some foreign speakers are lazy. I know them. They are very frustrating to speak to, and they are professionals (that is, pHDs, etc). It must be more frustrating to be them, though. I’d imagine it could be a vicious circle: they communicate poorly, and feel embarassed about it, so communicate less, which makes them communicate poorly, then feel bad about it…
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make, pseudotriton ruber ruber. Why do you want to withdraw from a conversation in which someone else is speaking a variant dialect? If you understand what they say at all, you should stick it out and listen. A thick Black English dialect is no more hard for me to understand than a thick Southern accent. If I told a speaker of either one that I was going to ignore them because I had problems understanding them, I think I would be in trouble. I’m not talking about merely asking them to slow down and speak more carefully but about telling them I didn’t understand them and didn’t feel like making the effort. In that case I think that there’s a good chance that the speaker of either a Black English dialect or a Southern one would slug me for my arrogance. I think you’re being arrogant too in insisting that everyone speaking English speak with your personal dialect.
Furthermore, I don’t think you are making a very good attempt at understanding what I and Lamia have been saying.
“There’s more to learning a foreign language than just hard work.” Did I say there wasn’t?
“But feel free to ignore this if you wish to continue branding people in foreign countries with perfectly respectable languages of their own “lazy” for not speaking English fluently,”
When did I say that?
“AAVE speakers are subject to a different criteria alright, different criteria that would force them to abandon their native dialect entirely, something expected of the speakers of no other American English dialect that I am aware of.”
Who suggested that anyone abandon his or her own native dialect? To insist on speaking one native dialect only is, IMO, disadvantageous on the face of it, and more than enough reason not to insist on it.
“The ability to speak multiple dialects is a useful, valuable, and admirable one. It’s a skill people would do well to acquire, for their own advantage. But a failure to acquire this ability is not laziness.”
True, but it COULD be a KIND of laziness, the specific kind I’m calling a lack of effort. When I travel somewhere Ii don’t speak but a few words of the language, I try to project modesty in presuming to use their language maladeptly, and gratitude for their endurance of my mangling of their beautiful language through a sheer lack of effort on my part. A similar acknowledgment is what I’m talking about here, but instead I’m hearing (tell me if I’m wrong) all sorts of justifications for why such a speaker should mangle the language proudly and with contempt and disregard for the native speakers.
“although I must wonder how many foreign languages you speak fluently”
Do you? Would you change your mind if I told you that I’ve had to achieve fluency in three languages (French, Italian, Spanish) to earn my degrees and professional certification, or that English is not my native language? I thought not.
“various social pressures also having an influence”
What would these be various pressures be?
As far as your first definition of “laziness” goes, I think that you are overstating or misrepresenting the case. Many speakers of AAVE only speak AAVE so it is not a case of refusing to switch. Just as you or I cannot “switch” into AAVE, a native speaker of AAVE cannot “switch” into standard English. The point that the Oakland School Board attempted (albeit poorly) to make was that many of the children in this particular district speak AAVE at home, with their friends and family, in their music, at the store, at church, on the playground, along with everyone else in the community. The only place they hear standard English is in the classroom and on TV. Refusing to switch codes in a situation that calls for standard English when the person in question is proficient in both is, IMHO, rare.
You second point is related to the first in that it is akin to learning a foreign language. The difference with regards to AAVE speakers and foreign-language speaking immigrants has to do with community. As I just mentioned, AAVE speakers function perfectly well within large established communities of AAVE speakers. An immigrant from Laos who lives in a town with a relatively small Laotian population is under tremendous pressure to learn English in order to get along with the community at large. I suspect that immigrants who settle in communities comprised of many other immigrants, who speak the same language, have a much lower rate of bilingualism (anecdotally, this is true for the area where I live which has a large population of immigrants from southeast asia, specifically Hmong).
And Lamia, your point about foreign professionals is well taken. However, many highly educated foreigners have learned English almost exclusively through reading and writing, with very little practice in speaking. As you pointed out, writing and speaking are two very different skills. I would venture a guess that if one of these professionals were to write you a letter, it would be perfectly understandable.
Wht th fck r you talkng bt, Wndll Wgnr? Pls rspnd n ths dlct, whl kpng yr thmb n yr nstrl.
All right, pseud, let’s go back to your first restatement:
The answer to the first statement is “Sure.” There are definitely people who expend more and less effort to learn a language than others. (Although, I would hold that since language is a particular skill, it is usually not possible to know which person has “chosen” to not perfect that skill through lack of effort and which person has simply failed for lack of abilities.)
I cannot see where anyone has argued your second point.
No one who defends AAVE speakers against charges of laziness has claimed that they should be allowed to speak it in mixed settings and expect the same level of success. The botched attempt by the Oakland School Board was intended to provide AAVE-only kids with the tools to be able to learn SEV. It is a truism that no one is going to be elevated to CEO of a Fortune 500 company (or, frequently, hired at any management level) if their only speech pattern is AAVE. I have not seen anyone argue that they should be admitted.
I suspect that people are missing your point because it appears to be a straw man. Given that Lyndon B. Johnson and H. Ross Perot could achieve the top positions in their careers without surrendering their regional dialects while no speaker of only AAVE will be accorded the same treatment, one could almost make the case that the AAVE-speaker is under more constraints than the speakers of any other dialect. Now, I am sure that Johnson and Perot were able to switch to accented SEV when they needed to–and people who defend AAVE as a valid dialect are quite willing to recognize that a speaker of AAVE must also achieve that code-switching ability in the larger society if they wish to achieve success in the larger society. So, I am afraid that you are going to have to clarify your questions if you want different answers.
Maybe you’re right, Tom. I thought I read some arguments here that AAVE speakers are merely victims of racial discrimination if they’re denied any advancement on the basis of their speech, but if I’ve taken that too far then I guess I am arguing against a strawman.
Curious though: in saying that Perot achieved the top position, you’re not forgetting that he finished third in 1992, in large part because his regional dialect contributed to a negative perception of him? Or that Jesse Jackson probably achieved more success in electoral politics than Perot despite a similar perception? We won’t even go into what part of LBJ’s failed presidency derived from his deficient code-switching.
Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
Well, I was referring to his position as CEO. As a politician, he was out of “his career.”
There may be some who would hold that a black person denied promotion for failing to use SEV was suffering racial discrimination. I would not generally be one of them. (I would say that a black person who used mostly SEV syntax and was penalized for using some AAVE pronunciation was probably suffering discrimination, but no more so than the brilliant third generation Polish American I worked with whose periodic lapses using “don’t” for “doesn’t” and similar phrases occasionally interfered with his career.) A person who refuses (or is unable) to switch to something approaching SEV is going to suffer, regardless of their origins.
Occasionally, their non-language contributions may be sufficient to get past that language barrier–which is not absolute–but it will still be a hindrance. Lots of immigrant M.D.s get by with poor English simply because there is a market for M.D.s that is not filled by the medical schools. I think some discrimination will occur because a black who spoke only AAVE will not pass the entrance interviews at a medical college while a Pakistani or Indian doctor will be given more allowance for their “accent.” However, I doubt that there are a significant number of speakers of only AAVE who are applying to medical schools, so I do not know that the issue is much more than theoretical. (I do know that I have been seen by doctors who I felt had no business practicing in the U.S. because their dialect was incomprehensible.)
Well, I was referring to his position as CEO. As a politician, he was out of “his career.”
There may be some who would hold that a black person denied promotion for failing to use SEV was suffering racial discrimination. I would not generally be one of them. (I would say that a black person who used mostly SEV syntax and was penalized for using some AAVE pronunciation was probably suffering discrimination, but no more so than the brilliant third generation Polish American I worked with whose periodic lapses using “don’t” for “doesn’t” and similar phrases occasionally interfered with his career.) A person who refuses (or is unable) to switch to something approaching SEV is going to suffer, regardless of their origins.
Occasionally, their non-language contributions may be sufficient to get past that language barrier–which is not absolute–but it will still be a hindrance. Lots of immigrant M.D.s get by with poor English simply because there is a market for M.D.s that is not filled by the medical schools. I think some discrimination will occur because a black who spoke only AAVE will not pass the entrance interviews at a medical college while a Pakistani or Indian doctor will be given more allowance for their “accent.” However, I doubt that there are a significant number of speakers of only AAVE who are applying to medical schools, so I do not know that the issue is much more than theoretical. (I do know that I have been seen by doctors who I felt had no business practicing in the U.S. because their dialect was incomprehensible.)
Gaffer
I would not take this as a rule. Their understanding of English often only extends to the tasks they use it for: say, discussing math, or physics, or chemistry. Troubleshooting an instrument with these types in very, very frustrating. Again, I’m sure it is frustrating for both of us, but it seems like they should be able to speak better than some of them do.
But, I don’t know what it takes to learn other languages, or what sort of barriers exist between, say, Japanese and English. Though I only encounter this problem with Chinese speakers AFAIK.
Oops. My apologies to lamia for that false attribution.
erislover - I agree that this is not a rule, however, based on my personal experience, it is true in some circles. I used to teach English to foreign professionals (and advanced students) and this is what I observed: Students from East Asian countries typically came from an educational system that stressed grammar and writing which resulted in individuals who were very proficient in looking things up on their pocket translators and writing clear, coherent sentences and paragraphs; Students from S. America, E. Europe, and the Middle East typically came from educational systems that placed a higher level of importance on speaking and aural comprehension resulting in individuals who were able to converse quite freely on a number of topics but had more difficulty conveying these same ideas on paper. A gross generalization but it was fairly consistent for the years that I taught.
I’m sure you are correct as well about their range of topics being limited to their area of expertise. What they read in English (and therefore are most comfortable with) may be limited to the academic/trade journals in their particular field. I lived in Germany for a few years and am very proficient and comfortable in your everyday spoken German. However, I never learned it in school and have a difficult time writing in German and I’m sure that I would have difficulties engaging in a discussion that required any sort of technical vocabulary. Of course, I’m not a Ph.D teaching over their either.