I think it’s depends on how it’s handled. It seems good that people considering abortions might have information about viable alternatives. I’m not sure every clinic offers those. Those cases need to be examined individually.
Not only that, but “This is how I feel about it, and if you don’t agree with me you are a baby killer”, followed by “I’m leaving because you’re mean to me”
REALLY does not lend itself to intelligent discussion.
I think we can all agree that classy is, well… a bit out of her depth. Perhaps we should let her have a little rest.
cosmodan, I’ve volunteered at a number of clinics, and visited those ones and more as a patient. Alternatives to abortion are always discussed. Always.
or a remotely rational one.
There may have been some gratuitous insults aimed her way earlier in the thread. I’m not going to read it and check. Learn the difference between posters and the difference between a discussion and an attack.
Thanks. That’s good to know.
But that definition only provides a definition for the final state, rather than the reasoning behind it and the ethical framework that led you to putting such high value on “life”. In other words, the meaty part of the argument.
In other other words: why ? Why would life be sacred, exactly ?
I would also point you to the philosopher Carlin’s discussions re: the sanctity of life, and I quote:
I think we’re in complete agreement except for what you’re saying about second guessing. First, I’ll preface that I’m specifically talking about people like this classylady sort who appears to want her beliefs enshrined in law.
The examples I gave were not really second guesses. They were broad enough to cover pretty much all the supernatural options for believing an embryo is a person more rights than a woman once physical evidence is being disregarded.
I’ll go further to say that the recent changes in beliefs are due to religion. As you already stated, embryos were not thought of as persons in the past even though people were more religious. The shift to thinking that embryos are people is due to decades of aggressive religious propaganda by fundamentalist protestants and the Catholic Church. It doesn’t matter whether a person with this belief is even part of those religions. They got those beliefs from the propaganda.
Now this belief has become ubiquitous enough that it is becoming mainstream, as poll numbers are now showing. This is what I think needs to be addressed. I’ll also note that people’s opinions are also changing about evolution in the same manner. Just sticking to the ‘facts’ is not working because the religious propagandists are lying with sciency-sounding rhetoric to make their case. It is not unusual to see anti-choice people say that science supports their beliefs.
So I think we have to acknowledge that religious propaganda is very successful in couching their rhetoric in a way that people don’t think it’s coming from religion. This has been a conscious effort by religious people and has been documented in several books ranging from Stebbins “Sex, Drugs and DNA” to Armstrong’s “Battle for God”.
We need to confront this for what it is. Religious ideas should not be used for making laws or policy when those ideas conflict with reality. I think we should be asking how to confront this problem.
To end this TLDR post, I’d also like to say that I think that just saying choice isn’t good enough. Anti-choice people have made embryos sacraments. Arguments like, “what if a guy was attached to you”, are useful for a small amount of people who are probably already pro-choice. The key is to prevent a further increase in anti-choice opinions by nipping this embryo=person notion in the bud. How do we do this?
That’s pretty interesting.
The thing that gets me, is even if you limit it to the sanctity or sacredness of human life, often anti abortionists are pretty inconsistent.
That’s really mature. Is that the best you can do? Call me stupid? I feel like I’m debating with a toddler. By the way I don’t think you’ll be winning any nobel prizes anytime soon.
I think that you aren’t especially bright.
I only came back here to respond to the arrogant people that think it’s funny to call me stupid. There is no way in hell I’m going to support people who feel that murdering their own child/children is A ok.
So continue on with your little discussion. At least my conscience is clear.
Not that anyone is going to care but I have REALLY REALLY strong feelings to feel the way I do. Something happened to me in 2006 that completely devestated me. I didn’t want to live as a result. However, I don’t feel i can trust anyone on here to tell them what happened. If you knew what happened to me you’d probably understand why I feel the way I do.
You told us a page ago that you were going to go away.
That’s really mature. Is that the best you can do? Call her stupid? I feel like I’m debating with a toddler. By the way I don’t think you’ll be winning any nobel prizes anytime soon.
I explained why I came back.
Get a life. Seriously.
Yeah, suuure. You suffered terribly in some unspecified way that for some unspecified reason is supposed to make us sympathize with your opinion. And it somehow justifies your desire to torment and abuse women.
That’s exactly why I won’t post it here because of unfeeling/cold people like you. Torment and abuse. i’ve never tormented or abused anyone or killed a baby for that matter…give me a fucking break.
Come on, lighten up, it’s just a message board.
And it was pretty damn funny.
I’m not feeding the trolls anymore thanks.
Fine. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.