I would also add that most people (not just anti-abortion people) aren’t very informed. I seriously doubt most of the public at large has any real understanding of the nature of fertility work. But they do can quickly grasp “doctors killing babies”. I would think protesting abortion is an easier sell because more casual opponents would glom on to the bandwagon.
Why is it that you have failed to acknowledge any of the previous factual errors that you have made and been corrected on? Do you simply decide to not respond, and move on to the next topic? Do you imagine that by not conceding the point, you are free to bring it up again?
Please acknowledge that you have read this post, ok?
No, for two reasons. First of all, “premeditated murder,” is a legal concept. As long as discarding frozen embryos is legal, then by definition it’s not premeditated murder. At most, you might say, “If you believe that life begins at conception, you should want the crime of premeditated murder to include the act of discarding frozen embryos.”
And that brings us to the second reason. I spoke above about “duty of care.” Who, in this case, owes the duty of care? The fertility clinic? The man whose sperm was donated? The woman whose egg was fertilized? This is the precise equivalent of a person in a coma – inarguably a human being, but unable to wake. I oppose killing that person, but I don’t oppose letting him die a natural death. So, too, here. To “save” that fertilized embryo, some woman would have to undertake a duty of care she does not presently owe. I think it would be great if someone were to volunteer, but no one is obligated to. So that embryo, that tiny human, will die, in just the same way it might in a spontaneous miscarriage. That’s a sad but non-criminal event.
Now, if you have a rebuttal to this point, let’s hear it. If you don’t, say so, and don’t simply slink off until you can think of your next topic.
No, there’s a “holy crap, you’re a moron” tone in that post.
Care to answer the question, by the way?
I’m also against discrading frozen embryos. I’ll explain again since no one understands. We are talking about ABORTIONS here. The topic is not about destroying frozen embryos. Start a new thread about that if you want.
Sure, except for the other two factors (because much of the other services provided are supported by the movement, and because the numbers of people involved are so dramatically few when compared to abortion seekers) which I had in my post but you cut out of my quote, I imagine in an effort to pretend that I only gave one reason. And you chose that reason because you had a ready response to it.
But since the other two reasons did not admit of such ready response, you didn’t acknowledge that they were there and had validity – you just edited them out.
In this thread, would you say you or I have been a more honest debater?
I don’t answer YOUR questions because your questions are not even worthy of a response.
I would suggest as rebuttal that the woman and man are conspiring to kill said kiddie-pops when they get the harvesting done. Wouldn’t you consider them equally at fault as a woman who goes into an abortion clinic?
The real reason it doesn’t rile you as much is you aren’t stupid. You’re delusional, but not dumb enough to get pissed about fertility doctors. If a baby is ensouled and conception then it’s the same thing.
Loving it:D
This is called* running away like a bitch*. You’ll find this tactic employed by people who don’t base their opinions on reality and facts.
Alternatively, I addressed that one because it was so nakedly opposed to what you claim that pro-lifers want that it begged for a response. Okay, let’s address the rest.
So are you finally admitting that pro-lifers don’t support basic gynecological care and birth control? Because that’s the majority of what PP does, but there they are.
No, it’s because there are otherwise sane people who are just dumb and/or sympathetic enough to their “we want to save the babies” claim to give them credit for meaning well when they protest clinics. Those people won’t give them a pass if they do the same at fertility clinics. It’s about the PR.
You are the farthest thing in the world from honest.
No. It’s called not responding to people whose only purpose is to insult. I’m not the bitch here.
You’re saying an individual gets to decide when another is a person, it should not or can not be spelled out in law.
Am I hearing you correctly?
May I ask what the difference is between a frozen embryo at a fertility clinic, and the unwanted embryo inside the uterus of a woman entering a women’s health clinic? I know you think it’s off-topic, but it really isn’t. How you are able to define the difference speaks volumes about the topic at hand.
What’s the difference between the two?
Well premeditated murder can be used in multiple ways. If, for example, a system of legalized slavery existed, and one was permitted to kill one’s slave (don’t actually know if that was the case with chattel slavery in the US, but I presume it has been somewhere) I would still find it acceptable for an opponent of slavery to describe an owner who sat and plotted the death of a slave and then carried it out to have committed premeditated murder, even if the law did not consider it such.
Well how would it be different to having a child, and watching the child starve to death. I think that would result in murder charges… Now, if you are going to retreat to the argument that the law creates a duty of care to the child, but not the frozen embryo, that simply begs the question of why you aren’t supporting the creation of such a duty of care to the embryo if its life is as legally valid as that of the developed and born child.
Why are you against discarding frozen embryos. You don’t think they are life because they haven’t been implanted.
I think if you take a moment to wiggle your toes, you’ll find that the shoe fits.
The embryo in the woman’s body is implanted in the uterus and growing. The frozen embryo is not capable of developing in a frozen state and without a uterus.
I also said many times that I don’t agree with discarding embryos either.
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in its death.
Throwing away an embryo is not the same as abortion by definition so it has nothing to do with what we are debating here.
Nope sorry. Shoe doesn’t fit:D
And, of course, as we’ve seen in this thread, pro-life folks are so discriminating when it comes to selecting only the proper targets of their picketing at women’s health centers. Wouldn’t want to harass someone who’s there for a pre-natal ultrasound, so they carefully pick and choose who they stalk and intimidate. Not.
I’d like to highlight the bolded part - that the prolife movement does not support the non-abortion services that Planned Parenthood provides.
Because in fact, a lot of so-called pro-lifers do oppose birth control of any kind for anyone. So it doesn’t really matter to them whether the filthy whores at PP are coming in for birth control or for abortion. Either situation is a good reason to protest.
And a lot of conservatives (the majority of the prolife movement) oppose any social services, especially to those disgusting poor people.
So overall, there’s no reason for pro-lifers to object to the horrendous behaviour of the picketers, because they are in general happy with the results: poor sluts are publicly hounded and harassed. What could possibly be wrong with that?
So how come people like you don’t stand around picketing at fertility clinics? Why no harassment for those clients? Both embryos are potential human beings, with human DNA, and the potential to grow up into a wonderful person who will love and get married and fart rainbows and etc. How come it’s “nothing to do with what we are debating here” when it’s OK to chuck one embryo into a trash can but not the other embryo?
One is a human life with a soul, the other is a collection of disposable cells. WTF?
Since classy stated her opinion on embryo discarding already, this post is primarily directed at other pro-lifers/anti-choicers. Classy, you are, of course, free as always to respond anyway. Go for it!