Abortion Laws; how can we change them to prevent abuse?

Great Debates
1

Drain Bead and I were discussing this over the internet just a while ago. We both feel that abortion is being abused by being used as a means of post de facto birth control. The laws allowing abortion to be legal do not prevent this abuse of the medical procedure.

I am no lawyer; I am an anthropology student. So; how could we alter the existing codes to prevent the loop-hole abuses of the abortion procedure? Or is it even possible?

I am not asking to make abortion illegal; only to place a few regulations on it so that it will not be misused as a means of after-the-fact contraception.

Phoenix

Sors immanis et inanis, rota tu volubilis, status malus, vana salus semper dissolubilis.

Carmina Burana: Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi–O Fortuna. Carl Orff: 1937

2

I’m of the firm opinion that further laws are not the answer. What would you do, set a lifetime limit on the number of abortions a woman could have? How would you track it? The invasion of privacy required is just as bad as that which would outlaw abortion to begin with.

I believe that the answer lies with education and easily accessible contraceptives.

There will always be women who use abortion as birth control. However, teaching girls and boys from Day One the consquences and complications of sex will lower that number at least as much as some law and with far less invasion of privacy.

3

I agree that education is the key; but we do allow the government to restrict certain areas of our private lives with taxes, welfare reform, health care, etc.

My problem is this: if there is a clear abuse of a system, should we try to fix it, or should we leave it alone? This is the leaky roof arguement. If a roof is leaking, but it does not directly affect us, should we have it fixed, or leave the decision to someone else?

I hold that we should try to examine the problem from multiple angles, discuss possible solutions, and then try to enact them.

Education is one. Others?

Phoenix

Sors immanis et inanis, rota tu volubilis, status malus, vana salus semper dissolubilis.

Carmina Burana: Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi–O Fortuna. Carl Orff: 1937

4

‘Abuse’? What do you think, women LIKE getting abortions?

If it’s the operation itself that bothers you, we (the nation) should make the Morning-After Pill more widely available and let it be known that it IS available. Or, in your view, should taking the Morning After Pill count as one abortion, and women will have to tear one coupon out of their little government-issued Abortion Ration Book?

5

The question I feel prompted to ask is in regards to abortion studies. Namely, is there any study which provides statistical information on how well educated on birth control/abortion issues women are who decide to get abortions? I think therein would lie some of the answers. If the statistics indicated that many women simply aren’t knowledgeable regarding birth control then a good dose of education should help lessen the problem. However if the problem is not with women lacking an understanding birth control/abortion options then what are the reasons the educated women have abortions? Can anyone provide references or studies relevant to the above?

Grim Beaker

6

Do you actually know someone who uses abortion as birth control? Abortions are painful, expesnsive ordeals. I think most women (especially those that have had one) would like to avoid them. “Abuse” of abortion is a non-issue.

7

Keep abortion safe and legal, in secret!

That’s my 100% facetious suggestion. Make a big show of outlawing abortion. Then, contact each woman who becomes pregnant but doesn’t want to be, and inform them that it’s actually still perfectly legal. Make them all swear to secrecy.

This would satisfy the anti-abortion people, plus it would make sure no one relied on the possibility of an abortion as a reason not to use contraception.

But seriously, though, I don’t think there is anything we could do to the law to prevent abuse. “Abuse”, as far as I’m concerned, would be when a couple habitually takes insufficient safe-sex precautions, just because abortion is an option. This is no different from someone thinking it’s okay to ride a motorcycle without their helmet, since with the miracles of modern medicine they might survive a crash.

Honestly, I think this is very rare. Nobody wants an abortion, it’s just that they want to delivery a baby even less. Lots of people have good reasons for this (a subjective statement, to be sure): they are too young to raise a child; they have unhealthy constitutions; they would rather finish school; they were impregnated by someone they don’t want to reproduce with.

Sure, there are cases of women who’ve had a kazillion abortions and keep going out having unsafe sex. Just as there are people who bike without helmets, skydive off of large rocks, and smoke. It’s just that we can’t let a couple of self-destructive cases interfere with the reproductive choice of the general public.

Legal action would be called for if the bulk of the suffering from these actions fell on society as a whole. As long as it falls on mainly on the individual, as it does with abortion, I think we have to pretty much trust with individual choice.

It is much better to inform people as much as possible. Tell them, in grim detail if necessary, that abortions are no fun. Sure, adults know this; do 15-year-old girls? (15-year-old boys should know too, but they probably aren’t going to care as much.) We do the same thing with Driver Education all the time. “Look at what happened to this Honda when the driver went for a spin after “just a few drinks”. Now imagine where the driver’s head is.” I’m not trying to be melodramatic; I’m just saying that the facts of unwanted pregnancy should be enough to discourage it. Especially when contrasted with something as simple as most forms of contraception.

8

I am not in favor of making abortions illegal. I am in favor of teaching people to take responsibility for their actions.

I also am in favor of legalizing the Morning After Pill.

And yes, I know several girls who use abortion as birth control. They refuse to get on the Pill or on the Depo shot or use condoms. They fear the side effects of the medications(weight gain/water retention)and say that condoms detract from the pleasure.

I am not discussing whether or not abortion should be legal; it is already and I have no big problem with it.

I am asking if there is a way to prevent abuse of the procedure. It is one thing if you are using contraceptives and they fail, if you are raped, or if you would die in labor. It is entirely another if you just do not want to take responsibility for an action.

What are the laws as they are now? How could they be altered to prevent misuse of the procedure?

Phoenix

Sors immanis et inanis, rota tu volubilis, status malus, vana salus semper dissolubilis.

Carmina Burana: Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi–O Fortuna. Carl Orff: 1937

9

even sven: “Abortions are painful, expesnsive ordeals.” Abortions aren’t that painful. How do I know? I drove a friend of mine to get one (no, it wasn’t mine.) They are not expensive either. I’ve saw someone get a pedestrian ticket (like a traffic ticket on foot) that cost him more than an abortion would have.

Phoenix: “. It is entirely another if you just do not want to take responsibility for an action.” The Roe vs. Wade decision was not made balanced on whether or not a woman has been raped etc. It was made on the fact that it is her body and she can do with it whatever the hell she likes.

Frankly, I’m not sure what is being referred to when someone says multiple abortions represents abuse. I’m also fairly certain that others here are not either demonstrated by all of the quotes marks.

Finally, well-educated women have abortions also simply for the reason that children are inconvenient. Obviously a more thorough knowledge of birth control is not going to convince these women to not have an abortion.

Voted most likely to ramble on inanely - I hope I’ve not taken someone else’s title ‘cause as far as I know I just made that up and I wouldn’t want to make anyone mad at me or anything like that and all ya’ know.

10

inertia: Abortions are painful, expensive ordeals.

How do I know? I’ve actually had one. If a friend of yours got a pedestrian ticket that cost more than an actual abortion in a licensed clinic, I’ve got to know what your pedestrian friend was doing. It had to be far more than jaywalking.

They are painful. If it’s peformed properly, it doesn’t hurt for long, a few days at most. But it does hurt. It hurts because your normally closed cervix is forced open (dilated), so the abortion can be performed. When a woman is in labor, giving birth, the most painful contractions she has are the ones that cause her cervix to dilate. How do I know this? I’ve also given birth–three times, one time before I had an abortion, and twice after. So I can state with authority that having an abortion is painful.

I have a question about your closing statement, about “well-educated women.” Do you mean women who are well educated about birth control, or education in general, such as women with a college degree? Please clarify that statement.

This space blank, until Wally thinks up something cool to put here.

11

Phoenix:

The current state of the law is that a women has the unrestricted right to choose to abort a fetus that is still in the first trimester; states may regulate procedures used in the second trimester, and may prohibit abortions in the third trimester. Per roe v. wade, and the later Casey case, these are constitutional rights and cannot be overturned by legislation.

I too think that abortion is a pretty crummy birth control method, but I also think giving the state the ability to dictate what fetus must be carried to term is a very bad idea.

JC

12

Well Phoenix, it sounds like you know a couple of irresponsible people. None of the ones I know are irresponsible in quite that way. The women I’ve known who’ve had abortions had all used precautions, or so they claimed.

Don’t worry, I didn’t think you arguing for the prohibition of abortion. It’s just that I don’t have any ideas to prevent the casual use of abortion as birth control. Seriously, I’d have thought that the mere facts of abortion would be deterrent enough.

13

See, Phoenix, that’s what I mean…the Morning After Pill is legal in the US, but no one seems to know it. More than one variety is available, I believe. Problem is, so few people are aware of it; it’s like a secret or something…

14

I mean really … weight gain/water retention versus somebody scraping an embryo off your uterus! Doesn’t seem like a hard choice…

15

Phoenix, no matter how you word a law, someone will abuse it. Believe me, I have been abusing and breaking quite a few laws for decades.

16

Just increase the cost for every abortion. Put them on a little internet database with a little jpg of a chalkboard and draw in a little chalk mark for every abortion. (the chalk to make sure it has the standard goverment inefficency) :slight_smile:

17

I’m going to go way out on a limb here.

First, let me state that as a man, I will obviously never have an abortion for any reason.

The right to have an abortion, according to the Supreme Court, falls under the fundamental right to privacy, especially medical privacy. The embryo or fetus, until it is viable, has no rights whatsoever.

A woman has the right to have an abortion for any reason or no reason. Such usage is not an abuse; it is a valid use. It is as fallacious to object to even a subset of abortion rights because people are exercising those rights as it is to object to the Second Amendment because people are exercising the right to bear arms.

Personally, I think the use of abortion as birth control is somewhat grotesque. But, as I mentioned before, it is not a choice I will ever have to make personally. There are a lot of things in this world I find grotesque, weird, and disgusting. But I have no business asking people to adopt my tastes any more than I have asking them to adopt my religion (or lack thereof).

If Cecil Adams did not exist, we would be obliged to create Him.

18

SingleDad: You rock.

Norman

19

I am currently searching for a source with the entire Roe v. Wade case online. Also; I am trying to find the state statutes on abortion for California, Virgina, New York, and Nebraska.

I would like to try to discuss what the laws are and how they could be amended; if they could be amended at all.

Also; I am probably going to wind up putting some stuff from various medical insurance agencies so we can see what the “business side” of the industry.

The Morning After Pill is legal? I did not know that! (You learn something new every day!) :slight_smile: Last I heard(years ago)it was still being debated and tested by the FDA.

If any of you could help me find links to the legal sites; I would be much indebted.

Phoenix

Sors immanis et inanis, rota tu volubilis, status malus, vana salus semper dissolubilis.

Carmina Burana: Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi–O Fortuna. Carl Orff: 1937

20

Phoenix, The “morning after pill” is a high-dose progesterone (?) tablet that prevents iplantation of the embryo it’s been around for well over a decade - I believe (reading your previous post) what you are thinking of is RU486.

RU486 is not yet legal in the US, largely because it is an abortafaceint (Spelling?). It causes the uterine lining to be shed whether you have had implantation or not, thus dispelling the embryo (if there was one). RU486 has met great resistance politically as it removes the doctor from the procedure and removes all of the credibilty of pro-life statistics regarding abortion.

Surgical abortion would become minimal if most women chose this as birth control, even if only as a “back-up” for other methods. Period a day or two late? Take a pill.

Sounds easy. Maybe that’s why its so politically charged.