Vast, in light of your return to the thread, and your assertion to your original point, allow me to apologize for alluding to your troll-ness.
But … While an irresponsible man may feel he has benefited from an abortion, the only thing that proves is that, as I said before, irresponsible men (and women for that matter) are assholes.
As for your weeding out the unprofitable females theory, …
… that would assume that there would be some vast conspiracy aimed at doing just that. Does this exist somewhere? Am I missing something? Do you actually see a time when women will be forced to have an abortion because their fetus is female? That’s ridiculous. And that’s just the flip-side of Pro-choice. If a woman is either forced to have an abortion or prohibited from having an abortion, she has lost her right to choose. Judging by your theory, may I assume you are pro-choice so this unwarranted “infanticide” doesn’t occur?
Bull. Some men are total shits, sure. Some women are too. Watch out for that high and mighty stuff, there, Sparky. I’m with Jack–I am personally opposed to abortion. I would never suggest that anyone should have one. And yet, somehow, I’m still in favor of reproductive rights. Is that a wierd concept to you? Or are all men who support a woman’s right to abortion shits to you?
Vast:
Can you support that assertion? Or are you actually going to compare Maoist China to the US?
I believe you have not shown this. Can you explain it a little better for me please? preferably with more support than your personal opinion? Thanks.
Possibly one of the biggest loads of bullshit I’ve ever seen.
Wildest Bill, let me introduce you (sort of) to a cousin of mine. His name is Jeffrey. He is/was/evershallbe acephalous. IOW, he didn’t have much more than a brain stem.
My aunt could have aborted his life as soon as she knew. there was no chance he’d live more than a few minutes. She could have paid the money to have the pregnancy terminated, and she would have received support in this from several family members.
She already had medical conditions which would have made normal delivery impossible without risking certain death. Even if Jeffrey had been a physically normal baby there is no way she would have been able to carry him to term. As it is, he would have died in utero at some point before 9 months had passed.
If you’re going to tell me that my uncle could have just paid for an abortion and not feel a thing besides a lighter wallet, I encourage you to get up off your ass and run. Don’t ever stop. I promise you, if this is what you’re saying I will not rest until I am so sure you know what a fucked-up statement this is that you have it tattooed on your penis, just to remind every woman you ever sleep with what a cretinous assertation this is.
I never met my cousin except by talking to him through my aunt’s stomach. Yet this subject is the only one I’ve ever cried about on the SDMB (other than Wally’s death). I pray for his soul and I pray for the souls of those whose lives are aborted before then can be born, never having met them. Not knowing their names or their parents.
For you to say that the man’s loss is solely monetary is so hideously erroneous I actually hope you meant so jokingly. In which case, in the future I suggest using [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags so as to avoid being taken to the Pit.
VRWC: “If my post intends to show anything it is that abortion in more cases benefits men, and more specifically irresponsible men, that it benefits women.”
How do you intend to prove this? Financially, an abortion is probably (if the cost is shared) going to hurt the woman more. The man usually won’t go to group therapy sessions or experience as serious psychological trauma. the man is at no risk for serious personal physical injury because he isn’t the one having the abortion.
**
VRWC: “If my post intends to show anything it is that abortion in more cases benefits men, and more specifically irresponsible men, that it benefits women.”
How do you intend to prove this? Financially, an abortion is probably (if the cost is shared) going to hurt the woman more. The man usually won’t go to group therapy sessions or experience as serious psychological trauma. the man is at no risk for serious personal physical injury because he isn’t the one having the abortion. **
[/QUOTE]
iampunha,
Am I missing something here or did you just give four more reasons that support my statement that abortion is more harmful to women?
Slow down IamPunha, Before you go threatening to tatoo stuff on someone’s penis I think you should ask for some reclarification don’t you?
No, I don’t feel that way about your uncle at all. What I was saying that a lot of times when a girl get pregnant by a guy and the guy pays for the abortion to get out of any other type of committment especially child support he usually doesn’t care about the abortion or the trauma it causes the woman. Now you see what I mean. A crappy dude. A selfish dude kinda of what Vastright was talking about not all guys. Some of us are ok guys that care except when you make comments about our penises then we get nervous. :eek:
There is somewhere where this exists, where women are forced, more or less, because of cultural constraints, to abort female embryos: India. In a country with an appalling lack of basic medical services in many areas, ultrasound is a real cottage industry. (It was “officially” banned for the purpose of determining gender in 1996, but the practice continues under the auspices of “prenatal health.”) There is also widespread female infanticide.
Again, though, the reasons are cultural–female children must carry a dowry to be married off, male children do not. One or more female children can be burdensome on poor families, who cannot afford lavish dowries. I can’t imagine such a thing happening in the United States.
Some of us call this useless information. Another piece of useless information: most tables have legs. The others don’t:)
VRWC: my brain’s kinda reeling from c. 4.5 hours of sleep. So if I don’t make sense that’s probably why. Sorry for the confusion.
WB: I was going more on emotion there than anything else. Sorry for the rant. As I told VRWC, I got like 4.5 hours of sleep, if that. Plus PD and I are having a mini-fight and neither of us is about to back down:)
I don’t claim to be able to prove that people in America use ultrasound and abortion to pick the gender of their choice, but my point is that it’s certainly possible. I suppose this could work conversely as well: Mom and Dad may already have two boys and now they want a girl. The little boy in the ultrasound may face elimination in this case.
Now we all know this would be very unlikely to happen. I’m just bringing up a big “it’s possible” even though I think we can all agree that this sort of selective breeding is as morally depraved as can be. Abortion being an option is what opens up this possibility.
I think you are trying to squeeze a Christmas ham of an argument through a key hole of reasoning (if I may coin a phrase).
By your own admission selective breeding through abortion is “not very likely” and universally agreed to be morally repugnant. So what are we debating? Abortion shouldn’t be made available because in extreme morally bereft situations it might be mis-used.
While we’re at it we’re going to have outlaw guns, butter knives, Bic lighters, bricks, cars, rope, TV, aluminum . . . I could go on all day.
I don’t claim to be able to prove that people in America use [automobiles to wantonly run down pedestrians for fun,] but my point is that it’s certainly possible.
Now we all know this would be very unlikely to happen. I’m just bringing up a big “it’s possible” even though I think we can all agree that this sort of [vehicular assassination] is as morally depraved as can be. [Driving] being an option is what opens up this possibility.
Simply because a thing is made possible does not mean that we legislate based on the least likely, most nightmarish scenarios out there.
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My initial point was that men are the ones that generally benefit from abortion, as opposed to the women who generally suffer. I have based this on the documented history of female infanticide and the use of ultrasounds and abortions in various countries for the purpose of selective breeding. I consider abortion not an American issue but a worldwide issue. I’ve also based my original point on the responsibility factor being substantially eliminated as far as men are concerned, no matter what we want to believe about the consciencious men who take full responsibility for their actions, and while I applaud them, abortion still opens the door as wide as can be for male irresponsibility. Meanwhile, women’s responsibility has increased dramatically.
Some things just can’t be measured such as how much pressure pregnant teenage girls may be feeling from society to get an abortion when deep down inside they may want to have the baby or whether people will use or misuse ultrasound technology. Abortion cuts much deeper than objective evidences and that’s probably why these discussions will never end.
Regardless, I respect all of your opinions and have enjoyed this discussion, but I probably don’t have much more to offer than what I already have…
So your saying before legal abortion, men HAD to take responibility? As though, instead of saying “Have an abortion” they didn’t just say “Your pregnant? Tough. It’s probably not even mine you slut, and anyway good luck trying to collect child support.” And as though they didn’t get away with it.
Oh, and the other thing irresponsible men said before legal abortion was “Have an abortion.” Except they were talking about a guy with a coat hanger.
I figure these might be some of the reasons women have for being pro-choice.
Except that those men who are assholes will still be assholes whether abortion is legal or not. Some men were assholes when abortions were illegal, and many women went to people who could help them abort a pregnancy. Some of those women died. Others chose to carry the pregnancy to term and dealt with it then. And the same damned thing happens today, except that if a woman so chooses, she can go to a doctor and have her pregnancy terminated. So fewer women die. And I must say that this is the first time I have ever heard a pro-life advocate argue that only men are being irresponsible, and not women. Congrats on bringing a new argument to the table.
I’m sorry, did you say that society is pressuring young girls to have abortions? Where? When? I’ve known teenagers who decided to have the child, and others who chose to abort. Not one has spoken of the societal pressure to terminate the pregnancy. Personal pressure, such as that coming from a family? Sure. But nothing that came from society at large.