I remember overhearing a line on the news while I wasn’t paying much attention, and the implications of it didn’t strike me until long afterwards when I had time to relax and think for awhile (it was a very busy day).
If I remember correctly, the line I heard was about a study which found that some number (more than 50%) of Muslims of Middle Eastern descent consider suicide bombers “martyrs”. There’s a very real chance that I heard the sentence wrong, and I doubt that it’s actually true even if I did hear it right, but it brings up a few points that might be pretty important.
Just how alienated do Muslims feel in Europe and America? Are suicide bombers really popular Muslim heroes, even among people who would never consider committing such violence themselves? Just how bad is the culture rift, really? And the scariest thought of all, are we fighting (or about to fight) a culture war? If so, could we even win? What does “win” mean in terms of culture war, anyway?
Do you know any people from Delaware who would strap on some dynamite because Maryland does not redeem cans for a nickel?
My point is that our culture leaves little room for dumbasses who should kill themselves for dumbass reasons. It plain does not happen.
That is a huge culture rift.
Self-preservation, killing other people, and following orders are the things running through our soldiers minds… as opposed to blowing one’s self up for 72 virgins.
I can think of Middle-Easterners’ mindset properly because someone taught me once that most of them have this alpha dog respect thing going where the most outrageous speech wins out until the most outrageous bloodshed overcomes that speech. They just follow the biggest agitator in front of them and obey the orders of the bringer of the greatest agitation.
And before you all jump on my ass for being a racist numbskull, the person who told me that was a leftist DEFENDING the Middle-Easterner’s shitty speeches where they talk of blood flowing in our streets and how it is just a commonplace thing that we should not take seriously because they are all into the whole alpha dog thing.
I have never had a problem understanding any of them since I learned that and frankly it is made me laugh a little more at our Terrorist Alert system.
Yikes. Not exactly the response I was looking for, but maybe useful in this discussion, if only to point out just how big the cultural divide seems to be. DevNull seems to be the Western response to “suicide bombers are heroes”, which frightens me a little.
Wow, so according to you a foreign invasion is equivalent to recycling policy. Tell me how you would feel if China one day decided to takeover Cape Cod because they feel they know what’s best for you or want to boost their economy.
Not that I care so much, but if my Happy Meal answer unnerved you a bit, then my Supersize answer to your overall question probably plain sucks out loud.
Yes. We are fighting a culture war that can only end in severe bloodshed.
Western ideals are fully incompatible with Islam and there is no middle ground. Suicide bombers are a small glimpse of things to come.
On the bright side, money cures all psychopathic ills (or at least the ill effects of psychopathic ills) and if we, as the USA, can do what we did to our own psychotic population over time then there is hope. The Saudis and the UAE have found the glory of taming their less-than-savory population and that hope extends to all within our realm.
Stuff like that happens all the time and we do have bigtime favors from like 170 other countries… 41 of them who participated in the current Iraq war and 26 of them who are still there so don’t even TRY to tell me that we are alone on this planet.
China and the USA are tied at the hip for the moment and only a few strategic countries would be so bold to shake things up so bad. A few years down the road things may change, yes.
Who’s we? What culture are you referring to? How do we pick sides? The “culture war” that I think civilization is going to have to face eventually is the “war” between the Fundamentalists (Muslim, Christian, Jewish and others) and the secular rationalists.
It’s ironic to me that some conservative fundamentalist Christians in the USA express such intolerance, hatred and fear toward fundamentalist Muslims. They need to wake up and realize they are on the same team.
So whatever power a nation possesses should be abused. Got it.
I’m just wondering if you’ll be singing a different tune once your nation is conquered and disgraced, while several loved ones are either dead or maimed. And for what?
I am not defending the terrorists, I think what they do is terrible and wrong but you have to remember the circumstances that give rise to such volatile hate.
That explains all the well-to-do Saudis who’ve grown up with peace and good educations, who get sucked into extremist movements that will kill anyone, Muslim or infidel, they view as an enemy. The latest batch of nutcases is primarily composed of physicians, who by any rational standard, should consider themselves blessed.
I’ve got no love for fundamentalist Christians. That said, until the fundamentalist Christians start suicide bombing and attempt to put us under a brutal set of laws similar to Sharia I’m not going to go so far as to say they’re on the same team. Our fundamentalist just don’t seem as bad to me as their fundamentalist. For one thing, I wouldn’t worry about getting shot for posting an irreverant image of Jesus Christ.
in case this isn’t a whoosh, or in case you honestly haven’t seen a news report for the past week: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19581311/site/newsweek/
And , yes, this is a full scale clash of civilizations.
Get used to it, because for the rest of your life, terrorism will be a major issue.
Well, Germany was conquered and disgraced after WWI and WWII, and I don’t see too many suicide bombers named Fritz, dreaming of 72 Aryan virgins.
There are basic, fundamental differences between western culture and Muslim culture. The only way to make them compatible is like Ronald Reagan said of the the cold war: We win, they lose.
And there are Christians who are looking forward to the end of the world; enough to sell millions of copies of the Left Behind series, for example. How is that saner ?
The Iraq war isn’t bloody enough for you ?
:rolleyes: We bribed or intimidated some country’s leaders into sending token forces against the will of their people. Big deal. It’s an American crusade in Iraq, with it’s British toadies a distant second. We are pretty close to alone. Especialy since we’ve destroyed pretty much all the political capital we had.
Those clowns who tried to set off some rather pathetic car bombs in London were doctors.
:rolleyes: Please, can the melodrama. Terrorism is a fairly minor problem ( 9-11 was huge for a terrorist attack, and objectively it was a pinprick ) that has no chance of threatening our civilization. Terrorism is the weapon of the weak; the Islamic fanatics simply don’t have the power for a “full scale clash of civilizations”. They barely have the power for a skirmish of civilizations.
After WWII, they had the power to field a serious military threat, and so didn’t need suicide bombers. After WWII, they rethought what they did, and largely decided they screwed up. And in either case, the Germans are too efficient and practical as a culture to use suicide bombers. A German who wants to blow you up will set the bomb and walk away, the better to bomb you again another day.
Because, of course, the Muslims are far to inhuman to change over time. :rolleyes:
I’m not in the US or UK right now so the details of that botched bombing aren’t really news here. I was thinking more in terms of Iraq, where there are the majority of actual successful suicide bombings.
Completely different context. Iraq was mostly minding its own business before the US decided to invade. They didn’t just lose WWII after an aggressive world domination scheme. You’re right, there weren’t that many Fritz’s dreaming of “Aryan virgins”. Fritz was dreaming of a world of Aryan supermen without the mud races polluting the gene pool. Now there’s something every red blooded westerner can agree with.
QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs]. Iraq was mostly minding its own business before the US decided to invade. .
[/QUOTE]
yes, but most of the suicide attacks in Iraq are NOT primarily aimed at US soldiers in their humvees. They are aimed at fellow Iraqis, in mosques and marketplaces.
I could understand insurgents trying to kill American invaders.But when they proudly commit suicide while killing 100 of their own neighbors–that’s a cultural phenomenon that has no precedent in Western civil wars.
So far, you are right. Let’s hope it stays that way.
All that buzz-talk about dirty bombs and anthrax powder hasn’t come true …yet.
But don’t dismiss it as melodrama. There is, today, more likelihood of a serious terror atttack, than there was, in 1960, of a communist attack. We didnt panic then, and there’s no need to panic now.
But the cold war only ended because we won and they decided to stop fighting.
Suicidal attacks are hardly unknown, nor is killing your neighbors in a civil war. I think you exaggerate the differences.
Anthrax is hard to use, and we have no evidence the anthrax wasn’t domestic. As for dirty bombs, they are a trivial threat, despite all the fearmongering.
We did panic then. We are panicing now. The difference is, the Communists were a serious threat to this country. They could have destroyed us. The terrorists can’t. No plausible attack the terrorists could mount could destroy us. They are simply far, far too weak.
More like they lost than we won. And you’ll note we didn’t have to invade Russia and kill them right and left.
a pinprick? The US would have called it a “surgical strike”. Minimum force for maximum results. It’s been six years since the pinprick and we are still smarting from it. The place is still a hole in the ground. We are still living under a constant state of paranoia. The government is still milking it. That is exactly what they wanted it and they got it. It was not a pinprick, it was a poison dart and the US is slowly dying from it.
Suicidal attacks are not glorified in mainstream Western culture. What I’m wondering is whether suicidal attacks ARE glorified within mainstream Muslim culture. That’s a pretty important distinction, and if it’s true I can’t see how Islam and the West can coexist.