About theft and piracy

Sheesh wring

I made one throwaway line at the end of a post (which, btw, i did later say “I may have overstated the case”, thanks for the ‘hint’), and you chose to ignore everything else and harp on this one detail even though it bears little relevence to the arguments presented. Then I presented a couple of examples to back up my claims, in hopes that you would drop this red herring and return to the thrust of my arguments, and you respond with more semantics.

Frankly, this hijack is worthy of a GD thread in and of itself. But if a retraction is the only thing that will get you to leave this alone and get back to the subject at hand, fine. I retract my comment about government being run by and for businesses for the purposes of this thread. Pretend I never said it. It doesn’t change my argument one bit.

D_Odds:

I was talking about the situation when the owner of the intellectual property has no interest in distributing it and also does not expressly want it not to be distributed. This is along the lines of abandonware, which was discussed earlier. Do you think abondonware is wrong? In your example the owner wants to keep their intellectual property private. I think it is debatable how important this right is, although I do not disregard it completely. What if Shakespeare is tricked into selling the copyrights to all his plays to a publishing company, and they decide to burn them all? If Shakespeare tries to distribute his plays over the internet do we send him to jail?

wring:

How could you possibly get this out of what was said? File sharing is the ONLY alternate method of advertising and distribution. Not the most convenient. The record companies control every aspect of production, advertising, and distribution, EXCEPT file sharing. Do you believe that monopolies are a good thing wring? Do you disagree with every antitrust suit in the history of the country? The record companies are currently an extremely unethical and unfair institution and if the only alternative is “theft” then so be it. Yeah, I know, I’m just saying the record companies are bad so I can “steal”, even though I have bought nearly 500 cds in the past 4 years. Who cares if the record companies use unfair tactics to coerce artists into terrible contracts. Who cares if they use their influence so that artists are considered mere workers for hire. I just don’t think you realize how bad a thing it is for the record companies to have so much power. If there is no alternate method of advertising and distribution, they can do whatever they want, and it won’t be pretty. Incidentally, there was another alternative, and it didn’t even involve stealing. It was internet radio. Whatever happened to that?

tulley:

Is the government run by and for businesses? Just look at the DMCA.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/20020503_dmca_consequences.html

http://chronicle.com/free/2000/10/2000103101t.htm

“Section 1201 contains two distinct prohibitions: a ban on acts of circumvention, as well as a ban on the distribution of tools and technologies used for circumvention.”

Any tool or technology that can be used for circumvention, regardless of other legitimate uses, is banned? They are blatantly trying to put a complete stop to advances in technology, to such an extent that foreign scientists are becoming unwilling to even come to the United States, for fear of being arrested. There is so much evidence that the law was made for businesses despite being horrible for everyone else that I don’t see how you can even avoid the truth anymore.

i download movies and mp3s and games all the time and i don’t give a damn if any .orgs lose money.

i think this is the general attitude among ‘pirates’.
so what’s the point of discussing?

Nightime, I totally agree with you re law being a tool for business. I retracted the statement, not because I don’t believe it is true (i do), but because wring was focusing on that comment and avoiding what I felt were the more salient points of my argument. Like I said, this is worthy of another GD thread by itself, and I didn’t want to get this discussion bogged down by what I feel is a tangential point. Just trying to keep this debate on track.

wring, you asked:

and I answered:

Since you seem to think it’s OK to violate the terms of the EULA, could you please address this?

You might also want to consider that I never would have heard of VNV Nation or become a fan and purchased their CD, if I hadn’t heard them on the 'net first, and downloaded a few of their songs.

actually, Squish I never said it was OK to violate that - I asked the question because I honestly didn’t know, (and still don’t - you say some/many, and haven’t supplied a link so I can see what the deal was).

tulley Word to the wise, if you think at this point that it’s a hijack, and not provable, then you should probably refrain from the 'oh, and I agree that it’s a tool blah blah blah but that wring character was only hijacking the thread w/ it" crap. prove it or drop it.
Why do any of you believe that you have the ‘right’ to anything that belongs to some one else? Some one owns a piece of art, it is their right to hang it in their basement and never allow anyone to see it (yes, we really like it when the donate it to a museum, but they’re not required to do so).

And it’s just wonderful that you discovered a band that you like. I’d really prefer that you’d done so w/o stealing. Obvkously, it didn’t bother you, it would bother me. In the grocery store, sometimes they offer samples of a new product, but when they don’t, I do not have the right to open the box and help myself to determine if I might want to buy some.

Continued analogies to stealing a physical product are beside the point. If you started eating Pop-Tarts off the shelf at Safeway, do you think the manager would be upset because you’re benefitting from Kellogg’s research and manufacturing without compensation, or because the store can’t sell an opened box of pastries?

Here are some excerpts from EULAs, showing the restrictions on installing to more than one computer (emphasis added). All the commerical software packages I’ve seen have such restrictions; I’m not aware of any package whose license allows you to use the software on more than one computer, without buying a more expensive site license.

Geee…one cannot use a little humor in his examples without exposing himself to cruel and merciless nitpicking. What a world…Yes, yes, the fact that he is dying of cancer is not really relevant

FTR: his name is mamda chi’ki, his favorite color is green, his was born in 02/14/1997 and i’m not sure what his lucky number is, but it’s certainly not 5.

wring I said it was a hijack (note that I never said it was unprovable - more words you seem to enjoy putting in my mouth) to Nightime because he seemed to be under the impression that my retraction implied I had changed my stance. Note his comment at the end “I don’t see how you can even avoid the truth anymore.” All I was doing was clarifying my position, and providing a reason for my retraction. There was no axe grinding aimed at you.

I have repeatededly requested to “drop it,” all I ask is you do the same. Oh, and address the main arguments instead of minor details that have only passing relevence to the debate.

tulley:

It’s my fault. When I said “I don’t see how you can even avoid the truth anymore” I was trying to use “you” to mean “anyone.” I didn’t mean to direct it at tulley personally.

As to it being an unprovable hijack, I think it is relevant, and I think if anyone actually followed the links I posted and gave it some unbiased thought they would have to agree that businesses have in fact used their influence to get unfair and extremely harmful laws passed. They would also see the error in believing that record companies are trying to advance with technology, rather than trying to stop technology in its tracks.

Right. Because when the record companies control every aspect of advertising and distribution, we can trust them to make music available to us that comes from bands who have not given up all future earnings to those companies. It’s not like they are run based on making a profit or anything.

Thank you, Mr2001, you beat me to it and saved me a lot of typing (wring, don’t you own any software–or do you just not bother reading the EULA?)

My point with discovering bands on the 'net (through Internet radio or downloads) is that these bands wouldn’t have sold any CDs to me or anyone else if they didn’t have the exposure that file-sharing provides. Should I apologize that my tastes aren’t mainstream enough to enjoy the innocuous pop shoved at us by radio and supermarket sound systems?

No, wring.

Boiled down, it means that since “theft” is the only method I have of ensuring that I get a fair deal, and since the consumer should have the right to be protected from being swindled by so called ‘legitimate businesses’ then the legal definition of theft should be revised to exclude file sharing.

Squish, I’m not against file-sharing software. If a band can legally put their wares out for open sharing, that’s fantastic. It would be really nice if they got lawyers when the recording industry railroads them into signing contracts to retain this right.

I also think that in the pre-hype for an CD, it would behoove the recording industry to offer samples freely.

That’s a perfect world. We don’t live in it. IMO, for everyone who uses file-sharing as a discovery tool to aid in purchasing decisions, there are many more who simply steal.

As for software EULA’s, there is a question to their enforcability, as consumers generally don’t have the opportunity to review them and agree with their restrictions prior to purchase, nor do they often have the option of returning the purchase if they disagree. They also haven’t been tested against Fair Use provisions. I would argue it is equivalent to saying you must buy a CD for every CD player you own, or a DVD for every DVD player, etc. They haven’t been tested in court because no company is going to the cost of litigation if you install a program on 2 or 3 computers instead of one. If someone chose to make a test case under current laws, I’d be interested in the end result (I just hope they don’t use me).

With six-figure settlements like this one, who needs to go all the way to court?

Who are you to say what a “fair deal” is?

Fair is a seller setting a price and a buyer either accepting or rejecting the offer. You either reach a deal or you don’t. Instead, you have decided that the price is more than you can or want to pay so just make a copy.

Morally, I don’t see how it’s any different than stealing money from the register because you don’t think you are getting paid enough.

Oh, but that’s it – that’s exactly what the MPAA and RIAA are, through legislation, trying to do! In fact, they are manufacturing software that can’t be used on some CD or DVD players at all. That’s what the whole DeCSS dustup has been about – allowing users whose only DVD player is a DVD-ROM on a Mac or Linux machine to watch their discs. That’s what the whole CD copy-protection hassle has been about – allowing users to listen to CDs that they bought on their laptop or desktop computers.

Essentially, manufacturers are trying to do an end-run around the entire concept of fair use, or of any use whatsoever.

I am the consumer who’s money is keeping the business alive.

That’s not my position. I’m getting copies of the song so I can check to see if what I’m buying is actually what I want to buy. I’m not just taking a copy.

It’s actually so different that I’m not sure how I can relate your analogy to the reality. The reality is that the record companies are essentially selling a product without letting me know what it is. It’s like, if you go to the grocery store to buy some apples and all the grocers in town have their apples in black velvet bags so you can’t tell if they’re rotten or not and he’s also mixed them up so you don’t know if you’re getting Red Delicious or Golden Delicious until you get them home. Just because every grocer is doing it doesn’t make it ‘fair’ or ‘right’ because you are being utterly ripped off. How on earth it is like stealing actual money from a register is beyond me. Granted, that would be the case if I were just nicking MP3’s but I (and I’m sure a large proportion of net users) am not doing that. Just because other people are misusing the software doesn’t mean I should be penalised for it.

There seems to be some gross misconceptions running throughout this thread, in regards to legislation covering IP (Intellectual Property).

First and foremost, intellectual property is clearly defined in most nations and treated separately (albeit only slightly so) from physical property. This is PRECISELY the reason that, for example, in the United States, legislation such as the DMCA and NET Act exist (although the NET act is mostly about closing the “not-for-profit” piracy loophole). When you take this into consideration, it seems clear that even the legal system - in the US and nations with similar approaches - however flawed in its dealings with IP, takes into consideration the distinction between theft of a physical product, and "infringement” of copyrighted works. They are not one and the same. They are separate, although similar, issues. When you are charged with breaking the law in regards to copyright, you’re charged with a different crime than you would be than if you stole a car.

Of course when you purchase a product, even a physical product, you are merely licensing it. You have a copy; the IP owner retains the rights to any content contained within that copy. This is why physical media is referred to as, well, media. It’s simply a means of delivery.

Second, some of you appear to be completely unfamiliar with the fact that while there is legislation in place to protect IP owners (copyright holders), and while they deserve compensation for their offerings, there are also statutes that apply to CONSUMERS in regards to intellectual property. In many cases, these laws fall under the same acts, but this is not always the case. They are meant to protect consumers.

For example, in many countries it is perfectly LEGAL to return a CD or CD-ROM simply because the content within did not live up to one’s expectations. Not every person on this planet is restricted by thoughtless laws that state “even if I’m dissatisfied by what I’ve spent my money on, I’m stuck with it”. Personally, I CAN INDEED return an album for a different one, at least where I live. This interpretation of everything under one system is, for the most part, an American phenomenon, and too often when intellectual property rights are discussed, we forget that America does not hold jurisdiction over the world.

Unfortunately, the US Government likes to think it does. Ask Syklarov and Elcomsoft about that one.

Back to legislation protecting the rights of consumers. While my aforementioned example of returning a CD due to dissatisfaction, for a DIFFERENT album, may not be a universal one, nearly every western (European, North America, western in the “historical” context) nation provides for Fair Use rights. Yet this legislation, despite having been passed into law, is often ignored by Intellectual Property Holders, who in turn infringe upon on the rights of consumers.

What this brings us to is the question of WHY people are ever more frequently committing “piracy”. I’m going to be somewhat general here, as there are dozens of reasons one might choose to “pirate” a copyrighted work over licensing it legally.

A) To avoid paying for products they wish to possess
B) To evaluate the product before purchasing it
C) To enable the fair use rights provided to them under the law (in this category, you licensed the work, but are still considered a pirate under short-sighted laws)

The first is clearly criminal. The action and INTENT are both present. You know, those two things required in court, for the most part, to convict someone of a crime? It’s greed. Even worse are those who profit from it. I can accept a starving student arguement in some cases, but not the starving student who sells CDs from his dorm room.

The second situation is somewhat of a gray area. There’s a simple reason as to why. The action is present, but the intent is not. The consumer WANTS to buy the product. However, he cannot make a sound purchase without first examining it.

Consumers are, in general, protected from poor quality products via several outlets: For one, the ability to learn about a product, and its limitations, beforehand – for example, through reviews (for general products, Consumer’s guides, for music/movies, Rolling Stone, Spin, whatever). Or by having the product examined by an expert (not in the case of music, unless you consider yourself an expert, but you should get the idea). If I’m to buy a car, I can take it to my mechanic and have him look it over. I can also check some car buyer’s guides and generally get an honest opinion. Finally, in most cases, consumers can also return an unsatisfactory or faulty product. This process is not thrown aside merely because with software, music, and movies, one is licensing rather than purchasing the product. You still have the right, even though you do not own software (I’m going to rely on software for my example at this point) but instead license it, to be protected from shoddy programs.

Before anyone argues EULA’s, the license that says “By having opened this box, you have automatically agreed to everything we say, even if your CPU explodes in the next ten seconds” is rarely recognized by the courts. Some EULA’s have weaseled their way through the system, most have not. Yet.

Unfortunately, certain industries, most notably the software industry, have put the kibosh on the whole concept of the consumer being entitled to a fair idea of how a product will perform. With software, I can’t look under the hood – doing so has become increasingly risky due to the legalities of circumventing copyright protection. Additionally, Joe Consumer has neither the technical know-how nor the time or tools to perform such actions. What they are limited to are trials for products which may or may not be available, and may or may not represent the finished product received when fully licensed. I hate going back to this car argument, but I can borrow a friend’s car and take it for a test drive. I can be the only one in the car. I can drive it on the roads I choose. I can lend him my car in exchange, so he has something to drive. But I’d be, technically, breaking the law in many cases if I was to test drive a program belonging to a friend on my own system. Even if he wasn’t using it at the time, many products license per machine. And if the software is restricted by something like FlexLM (i.e. a high-end graphics or CAD package that, say, a student might wish to try out as its used in his or her field of study)? Heck, now even if I buy a new machine and wish to transfer my legitimate license, it’s going to cost me money – at least in the sense that it’s going to take time, and I believe someone once proved that time == money. :wink:

Additionally, the issue of written reviews, in regards to software, and increasingly in regards to the music and movie industries, has become tainted with scandal (read: non-existent movie reviewers made up by studios). Back to my software example, if you’re in the software industry, you know two things: One is that the number of forums for reviews of applications outside of major software packages such as those presented by Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia, Corel, etc., is extremely limited. Public knowledge of these forums is extremely low – where does a consumer go if he or she wants an HONEST, UNBIASED opinion of a program? One not found in the local free computer paper, major websites, or PC mags, all of which stick to popular programs and do not go in-depth for the most part? What about niche markets, where consumers have even fewer options? Ever try finding a review site for CMMS/Facility Management software? You have maybe two options online, at least that are decent.

The second thing you understand, if in the industry, is the SELLING OUT of journalists and magazines. This is why I emphasized the words “honest” and “unbiased”. In the field of PC Games especially, magazines survive by getting ADVANCED REVIEWS of high-profile upcoming titles. The magazine that gets it first, that gets the most first, retains the readership. However, game developers frequently blacklist publications that give their products poor reviews. The result is an apologetic climate in which many games are overly hyped right up until they hit stores – at which time consumers can see the truth for themselves. The problem here is that many consumers pre-order games (a method of sales that game distributors absolutely LOVE), based upon the “more hype than actual review” articles put out by those sources that the developers have given the permission to do so.

Now I’ve stated that this is a gray area because only the action, in most cases, of a crime has taken place. There is no intent. The person who honestly wants to buy the program but wants to try it first is NOT, as Wring insisted earlier, a criminal, in my view; he’s a conscientious consumer.

This brings us to the third point.

Fair. Use. Rights.

Why these continue to be ignored is completely beyond me.

In the case of Audio CD’s, movies (DVD/VHS) and Software, you have to right to media shift and backup any software you legally own (meaning you’re entitled to, usually, one backup copy, and can shift to other media. In the case of music you are entitled to media shift to different formats to play in a car or on a CPU, for example). You have this right if you live in the United States. You have it if you live in Canada. Read the Canadian Copyright Act, if you live in the latter.

In the case of television, you have a right to time shift (record for playback at a later time). And despite Jamie Kellner’s argument that viewers have a contract and MUST watch commercials, they do not. Feel free to change the channel, fast-forward, or time-shift.

These rights sound reasonable, and if you own the product in question, you’re not a pirate, correct?

Wrong. In order for me to back up most of my games and software, I need to break the law. I need to download an illegal “crack” for the copyright protection in order to make a copy of the game I am entitled to by law. I need to find an emulator for the hardware dongle – because, since the dongle is an integral part of the program (needed to run) and in some cases performs calculations, it should be included under the backup clause.

Piracy now stops being a matter of monetary value. It becomes a matter of an individual’s rights as a consumer. DVDs are region encoded and protected with Macrovision to prevent copying, as are most new VHS tapes these days. Audio CD’s are being protected so that the quality of copies degrades (at the least) or so that they cannot be copied at all. Thus in order to convert my legally purchased CD to MP3 to play on my CPU (since it may no longer play in my CPU do to copyright protection that could physically damage my CD-ROM drive), I have to download from Morpheus or WinMX or some other channel. The IP holder has just turned me into a criminal, by ignoring my legislated rights.

In this example of “piracy”, there’s neither a criminal action nor the intent to commit one. At least not on the part of the legal copyright holder downloading the material. On the part of the person providing the material, now you’re looking at his motives. And someone could very easily make a GOOD FAITH argument in this regard, stating they were providing the material in “good faith” for legitimate users of the CD/Movie/Software in question.

The end result? Some forms of piracy are detrimental to various parties, not all. Not all forms of piracy are illegal (or at the very least, they are not immoral). IP issues have been hijacked by parties with a purely financial interest, leaving consumers bent over a barrel - and it many cases, back extra to be screwed in such a fashion.

Various tidbits:

Wring, music labels and the RIAA fought very hard against allowing CD’s to be played in stores. Those kiosks you keep mentioning, where it’s nice and legal to preview a CD in advance? They attempted to outlaw them.

In Canada and several other nations, there is a tax on all blank media, including CD’s, the funds of which go straight to the pockets of the RIAA and similar organizations.

Companies like Adobe (Adobe did this nearly word for word) have told me that I need to pay to receive a backup of the product I’ve purchased (licensed) from them, regardless of Fair Use Rights. My rights do not matter to them. When I asked what would happen if I got a copy on my own (off the net or from a friend), I was informed I’d be breaking the law. To get a backup entitled to me WITHOUT CHARGE by law, I must either pay – or commit an infraction against a different piece of legislation.

I happen to take the Socratic approach to all of this, and personally I’m in favor of MP3’s and other media trading in the “try-before-you-buy” context, but I’m aware it can be interpreted in numerous ways. Not everyone will be honest about it - but then, go after those people who are NOT honest about it. It’s not that difficult to figure out who. Specifically, those selling CDs at markets, counterfit CDs, etc - nail them. We don’t need John Ascroft setting his sites on a bunch of file traders (read today’s news, folks).

I believe it was Jack Valenti who recently said “anyone arguing in favor of fair use is a criminal” or something thereof, but I don’t have the quote. Would love if someone could find it. In either case, call me a criminal - I want to stand up for my rights.

http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=198

http://research.yale.edu/lawmeme/

It is all moot anyway. In the Napster case, the RIAA got caught lying about what songs they owned copyrights for. Also, the companies that comprise the RIAA are heavily fined for collusion on the price of CD’s. There is a proviso in the copyright law that penalizes abuse of copyright, the penalty being complete loss of copyright. The RIAA should have been just happy buying out Napster.

Cathartik, that was an absolutely terrific first post! A great, cogent, organized summation of everything people have been trying to argue. Welcome to the SDMB!