Is piracy the same as stealing?

Great Debates
1

I’m saw this quote in Argent Tower’s thread How did “Piracy” come to mean "copyright violations? which really got to me, and rather than hijack that thread any more, I decided to start one here, where it was more appropriate. Anyways, the second quote is a reply to the first.

[QUOTE=Mikemike2]
I do not mind copyright violations being referred to as “piracy”, but they are certainly not theft. I am sure the PR machines are behind equating making copies with theft. [snip] Even if copyright violation is illegal, it is not theft. Theft is a real word with a real meaning. It implies depriving the owner of property, or the use of property.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Alan Smithee]
As others have pointed out in other threads, that is not true. If I come to your house when you are asleep, hotwire your car, drive to the store, and return it before you wake up, I’ve stolen it, even though you’ve been deprived of nothing. Stealing is taking without authorization, not depriving another of use.
[/QUOTE]
I think that second quote is one of the worst analogies I’ve seen in this debate. Deprived of nothing? First of all, there’s the damage to the vehicle done when you hotwire it, and then there’s the gas that they’re going to use. Let’s say for the purposes of arguement that our car thief fixed everything that he broke, and filled up the tank. It’s still theft, because I was * deprived of the use of it.* Even though I was asleep, there was a finite period of time where I could not use my car.

So, now that we’ve tossed that analogy out, let’s look at the word theft.

[QUOTE=Compact Oxford English Dictionary]
theft

• noun the action or crime of stealing.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm .. that didn’t help. Let’s look at stealing.

[QUOTE=Compact Oxford English Dictionary]
steal

• verb (past stole; past part. stolen) 1 take (something) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
[/QUOTE]
That’s better. You’ll note the part where is says you take something. Not copy. Pirating software is a form of copyright infringement, not theft. Of course, anyone who depends on selling software to make money is going to want to call if theft. Theft sounds like a major no-no. It brings up images of burglars and bank robbers and all sorts of nasty things. It’s clear, straightforward, and in this case, completely wrong.

Copyright infringement, on the other hand, while still not sounding good, doesn’t come across nearly as bad. It sounds like something that two lawyers would argue about. Can you blame the software developers for wanting to call piracy theft? I can’t, even though I completely disagree with them.

Now, If you want a better analogy, let’s say I went to the library and signed out a book. I then take it home, scan it into my computer, and return the original copy to the library. Have I stolen it? According to the definition above, I haven’t. I took it with permission and legal right, with full intentions of returning it. However, I have broken the law, becuase I have infringed on the copyright of the book.

Please note that I am not defending software piracy. I am just opposed to people calling it theft to rile people up.

2

[QUOTE=Mithrander]
It’s clear, straightforward, and in this case, completely wrong.

[/QUOTE]

We’ve done this discussion many times, and I haven’t seen anyone change their opinion due to an analogy. In this case, I think your statement above is wrong. In my interpretation, you have stolen the profit that the person who owns the copyright should have coming to them.

And yes, write software for a living.

3

Yes this has been hashed out many times…

But I would definitely say the opposite of the previous poster. It is NOT the same as stealing. Thats not to say it is right in all cases. But at no point did everyone sit down and make this moral equivaliency, it seems obvious to me that it is not the same. We don’t call letting your parking meter run our stealing or not paying your taxes stealing, so why piracy…?

I also write software for a living.

4

[QUOTE=Telemark]
We’ve done this discussion many times, and I haven’t seen anyone change their opinion due to an analogy. In this case, I think your statement above is wrong. In my interpretation, you have stolen the profit that the person who owns the copyright should have coming to them.

And yes, write software for a living.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I did a search before I posted this, and saw that it had been gone over maybe once or twice. Still thought that I would give it a swing.

And I still think that you’re using the work steal inappropiatly. Yes, I have denied the copyright holder potential profit. But I have not stolen that from them, since they never got it in the first place. I can’t take something from someone that they never had.

5

[QUOTE=griffin1977]
Yes this has been hashed out many times…

But I would definitely say the opposite of the previous poster. It is NOT the same as stealing. Thats not to say it is right in all cases. But at no point did everyone sit down and make this moral equivaliency, it seems obvious to me that it is not the same. We don’t call letting your parking meter run our stealing or not paying your taxes stealing, so why piracy…?

I also write software for a living.
[/QUOTE]

But they do. As a man who used to write parking tickets for a living, I can tell you that when it got to court (as they sometimes did) it was referred to as “theft of services.”

6

And not to hijack my own thread, but I almost bust a gut laughing when I read the google ads on the bottom. “Eliminate male breasts” and “Prevent Male Baldness” It makes a person wonder what stereotypes of software pirates are floating around out there …

7

[QUOTE=Mithrander]
And I still think that you’re using the work steal inappropiatly. Yes, I have denied the copyright holder potential profit. But I have not stolen that from them, since they never got it in the first place. I can’t take something from someone that they never had.
[/QUOTE]

You’re flat out wrong. You have stolen something. You stole the use of a product by not paying the licensing fee required for lawful use.

8

Eye-patches and parrots make it much more glamorous. Arrrr.

9

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
You’re flat out wrong. You have stolen something. You stole the use of a product by not paying the licensing fee required for lawful use.
[/QUOTE]
Ok, to play the devil’s advocate here, let’s say I pirate a piece of software, but don’t install or use it. Am I still stealing it?

10

[QUOTE=Mithrander]
Ok, to play the devil’s advocate here, let’s say I pirate a piece of software, but don’t install or use it. Am I still stealing it?
[/QUOTE]

Yes. You have no right to pirate the software. It really is that simple.

11

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
You’re flat out wrong. You have stolen something. You stole the use of a product by not paying the licensing fee required for lawful use.
[/QUOTE]

Simply not true. Nothing was taken. That is the definition of theft (as the OP points out).

I guess my parking meter example was a bad one, as it opens up a related (but different) can of worms over “theft of services”.

12

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
Yes. You have no right to pirate the software. It really is that simple.
[/QUOTE]

Thats unrelated to the OP. Whether or not it is right or wrong, it is NOT THEFT.

13

[QUOTE=griffin1977]
Simply not true. Nothing was taken. That is the definition of theft (as the OP points out).

I guess my parking meter example was a bad one, as it opens up a related (but different) can of worms over “theft of services”.
[/QUOTE]

Something clearly was taken. That something happens to be intangible, a right owned by the copyright holder. By pirating software, you have unlawfully deprived him of his intellectual property.

14

[QUOTE=griffin1977]
Thats unrelated to the OP. Whether or not it is right or wrong, it is NOT THEFT.
[/QUOTE]

Yes it is, and no amount of word games will change it.

15

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
Something clearly was taken.
[/quote]

How so. Its only “clear” beacause you say so.

[QUOTE=Oakminster]
That something happens to be intangible, a right owned by the copyright holder.
[/quote]

But how was this “taken” ? I have a blank CD-ROM in my drive… clicks… I’ve now copied “MegaBlaster-4” to that CD. I have not taken anything or deprived the original owner has exactly the same rights and property as he had 30 seconds ago. What I did may be against the EULA or even the law, you may consider it immoral, but it is NOT THEFT, as nothing was taken.

Who is playing at word games now ? … But again how was he “deprived” ?

16

In the case of music or video piracy - whenever you make something into data, you’re essentially making it capable of being copied infinitely. You basically have to trust the consumer to purchase the infinitely copiable product and not make a copy for a friend or for the entire internet. In theory, you don’t have to, because it would be a violation of copyright law.

Folks always try to oversimplify and say it is the same thing as going into the store and taking one. No, it’s not. It’s easier, it’s private, and there’s no simple way to protect against it. In that degree, it is not theft.

17

[QUOTE=The Octagon]
Folks always try to oversimplify and say it is the same thing as going into the store and taking one. No, it’s not. It’s easier, it’s private, and there’s no simple way to protect against it. In that degree, it is not theft.
[/QUOTE]
How does the ease of the act, the privacy of the act, or the fact that it’s not easy to prevent the act, have anything to do with whether or not it is theft?

18

Stealing involves taking property. It’s simply the definition of the word. No property is taken during software piracy, therefore it is not stealing.

19

[QUOTE=griffin1977]

But how was this “taken” ? I have a blank CD-ROM in my drive… clicks… I’ve now copied “MegaBlaster-4” to that CD. I have not taken anything or deprived the original owner has exactly the same rights and property as he had 30 seconds ago. What I did may be against the EULA or even the law, you may consider it immoral, but it is NOT THEFT, as nothing was taken.

Who is playing at word games now ? … But again how was he “deprived” ?
[/QUOTE]

Try this link for starters:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcopyright1.htm
From that Staff Report:

*OK, but what exactly is copyright?

Once a work is created, its author owns a package of exclusive rights:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;
(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;
(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to perform the copyrighted work publicly;
(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and
(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.

See where we’re going with this? The Copyright Act gives all rights to copy, perform, and modify the work to the author, not to you. *

20

[QUOTE=DMC]
How does the ease of the act, the privacy of the act, or the fact that it’s not easy to prevent the act, have anything to do with whether or not it is theft?
[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t. It has to do with “it’s the same thing as…” not being a valid argument.