I was reading the thread about LGBT groups working together and got curious about something. It seems this has been discussed before, but I didn’t find what I was looking for.
For the record, I hope to get answers as factual as possible, if there’s been research on this topic I would really appreciate references (or if there’s already a thread on the topic that I didn’t find that’d be good too), but if you have experience on the matter that’s also welcome.
Is there any relation between gender identity and sexual orientation or are they mostly independent? in the sense that.
Are most trans MtF attracted to males? (or females) and the same for FtM
Are they gay and straight in the same (or close) proportion as non-trans?
Is it different for MtF and FtM?
Does it change during/after transition?, if so any idea why? and % of those who change.
Is it much more complicated than I’m making it seem, and I know nothing?
I don’t have any information about the statistics, but just FYI, some people object to being called “transgenders”. The more polite term would be “transgender person”, “transgender man” for a female-to-male one, or “transgender woman” for a male-to-female one.
The politest terms of all would be man and woman respectively.
If you know that someone is in the process of transitioning, by all means ask which set of pronouns you should use if they don’t make it clear already. (Robert becomes Roberta at the bottom of emails? Probably should go with she and her.)
If you don’t know, use context, dress, and bearing to determine gender just as we do with cispeople and if you do make a mistake, apologize sincerely and immediately.
I’m not sure of the exact breakdown of homo- vs bi-, if such a statistic exists, but it appears that a large number of MTF are attracted to women and a significant-but-not-majority number of FTM are attracted to men. I’m fairly sure that in both cases the number is not even close to the proportion of homo/bisexual:straight for cis individuals. (I’m not sure of the exact number, or if my statistic is accurate, but I’ve heard figures around 10% for rates of cis homo/bisexuality).
Many transgender people also object to being described as “male-to-female” or vice versa, since they consider themselves to have always been whatever comes after the “to”.
Funny, I was just watching the Anderson Cooper interview with the trans Navy Seal who recently came out, and I was wondering the same thing and thinking about asking here.
Polite but in some contexts impresice which is why English now has the terms “cissexual”, “transsexual”, “cisman”, “ciswoman”, “transman”, and “transwoman”, all of which are proper terms in a discussion of this nature. I haven’t seen anyone take exception to "MtF or “FtM” in such a context, either, although given human nature I’m sure someone somewhere somewhen has.
Many transgendered people do not wish to be viewed or referred to as trans. They often wish to simply be known as the gender they present as. The goal of transitioning is to move from one gender to another, not to a more amorphous bi-gendered state. In a discussion of transgenderism the cis- and trans- prefix is useful but in everyday conversation, it’s not that critical.
Oh, God, y’all should hear my sister about this one. SHE insists on “transwoman.” I’ll never forget the time she was trying to get her NINETY YEAR OLD GREAT-AUNT with dementia to use correct gender pronouns. Sometimes, the Portlandia scripts just write themselves… anyway… I’ve also heard trans people argue that they don’t want to be called by a simple gender pronoun because they’ve had to fight so hard to get there.
And… you know, it’s something about Portland, I think… but there are a LOT of people who would indeed describe themselves as existing in an “amorphous bi-gendered state.” Yes, including people who are transitioning. They use some different words to encapsulate the experience, but you do hear “genderfunky” and “genderqueer” a lot. I personally invented “genderflippety” (people whose experience of gender varies at different times), and I’ve now heard several people here say it. I have invented a new word!
“MtF” “FtM” and “sex change” are just bad terminology. Sex is not gender, and the terms shouldn’t be used interchangeably. The former is chromosomal and the latter is cultural.
Please note that the phrase “in context” is in my post. I actually completely agree with that blogger in regards to the use of those terms where they are not relevant. A “transwoman” is a woman. A “transman” is a man. For most discussions the fact that at one point their brain and body disagreed is irrelevant.
If, however, you’re discussing how biology may or may not affect certain traits then the use of those terms, in my opinion, IS appropriate because repeatedly stating “in the case of a woman who was born with male genitalia who has subsequently had treatment for that birth defect” would really bog down the conversation. And that’s a relatively succinct way to put it.
As a comparison, the term “dwarf” can be insulting in certain contexts, but if you’re discussing medical conditions then the term “dwarfism” can be appropriate,
But it’s inherent in the terms “trans woman” or “trans man” that you’re discussing a person of one gender who was assigned the other gender at birth (referring to genitalia as either male or female is also disfavoured terminology). I’m not really sure why you don’t think you couldn’t just use those terms, and avoid “MTF” and “FTM” entirely.
Because, due to a lack of exposure to/thinking about these things many cispeople find the terms “transman” and “transwoman” confusing. I recall one conversation where someone couldn’t keep straight whether “transman” meant “started with male genitals and had surgery to make them female in appearance” or “started with female genitals and had surgery to make them male in appearance”. “FtM” seems to be easier for many to remember “started with female looking bits, ended with male looking bits”.
There is also, I think, another subtle distinction here. While many cispeople focus on genital surgery more time interacting with transsexuals has led me to believe that for the people actually affected by this disorder the exact form of genitals is not always as important as 1) being socially accepted as their internal/mental gender and 2) being accepted for who they are rather than treated as some sort of sick freak. There are transsexual human beings walking around who still have the same genitals they did at birth but living as their “preferred” gender (I’m not happy about that term “preferred” because I gather it isn’t so much a “preference” as a compelling mandate) and content with that rather than feeling compelled to re-work their plumbing. I’ve had discussions where “FtM” is used as a shorthand to refer to transmen who have had sugery(s) as opposed to those are using breast binding and hormones.
In other words, a transwoman is a woman whether she’s had a full suite of surgeries to feminize her body or is still a heavily bearded Navy SEAL living in denial and posing as a man to appease social norms. Saying she’s a “MtF”, though, tends to imply she’s had some surgery. In my experience, which is admittedly strictly as a cissexual trying to understand something foreign to my own experience.
Admittedly, these are not 100% rules and part of the problem is that there aren’t well known (outside the small circle of people interested) means of discussing this issue that doesn’t tend to cause offense. Cis people tend to blunder into conversations and may well cause offense without intending malice.\
But if someone has a short term for “transperson who has not yet started their transition to a different gender presentation than their biology at birth” vs. “transperson who has completed a transition to a different gender presentation than their biology at birth” I’d be happy to take note.
First off, the discussion over terminology is interesting but also sort of bean-counting. A trans-sister put it to me once: “within reason, well-adjusted transpeople only pay attention to the intent.” YMMV for what’s considered to be “well-adjusted.” No one can get into bigger fights over “transgender” versus “transsexual”, or even “transgender” versus “transgendered”, etc. than the community itself. I’ve seen grown women cry over terminology offered with complete non-offensiveness.
I’ve been called M2F, transwoman, transgender, transsexual, t-girl, etc., and in context none of them were offensive. I do not personally care for “transgender” as I go by the older definition which separates transsexuals as “transgender persons who are actually or have already transitioned.” Since I’ve transitioned, “transsexual woman,” “transwoman,” or just “woman” might be more accurate. “Tranny” has taken on a pejorative term, as has “ladyboy.”
If you add in my intersex medical condition…hoo girl, there’s so many other things I could be called.
Since July, 2012, the ONLY times I have had slurs used against me IRL and to my face have been by members of the gay and lesbian community, amazingly.
Some put forth a mantra of “there is no connection, they are independent.” I was even recently on a radio interview where that was brought out.
I think the best way I can summarize my research is there must be a connection between gender identity and sexual orientation, although the connection is not strong, and may be complicated by many other matters.
Some references I have break down M2F preference post-transition as about 1/3 lesbian, 1/3 bi, and 1/3 straight. And F2M preference post-transition…varies. About 25-50% of transmen are found to be gay or bi, and the remainder straight. But then it varies quite a lot from community to community.
I went down my most recent Facebook friends list of local community M2Fs, and tallied up the scores from what I knew of their sexual preference. It went like this:
Even if all of the unknowns were straight, that would still only make them accounting for 1/6, which seems at odds with various sources.
I only know a few F2Ms - their community has a high “Chinese wall” between them and us locally. All of them (3/3) are bisexual. It’s Too small of a sample size to mean anything.
Orientation can change after transition. In fact, the orientation change can be very confusing, disorienting, and even heartbreaking after transition. I don’t have good stats, but many of my friends who were lesbian at the start of transition are now bi, or leaning straight. I did not include them in the “straight” totals above because many claim they have no intention of actually having a relationship with a male, but they feel urges. One of my best friends, 1 year into transition, has learned that she now wants to be a housewife and be taken care of by a man. This of course has led to the breakup of her marriage. Another friend went 18 months as a hard-core lesbian, before she ended up going on a blind date and performing oral sex on a man in a car, then having a three-way with two other t-girls, then changing her status to “pansexual.”
Some post-SRS women will have a single fling with a man to “test out the new equipment.” Often they look to a gay friend so there is less chance of an emotional attachment. I wouldn’t say this changes their orientation. I’ve heard of one post-transition woman who even has a “standing date” once a month to have sex with a male friend to “keep things working” (entirely unnecessary if she’s doing her dilations…I guess it’s a good excuse.)
Now about me. When I was young I leaned lesbian very strongly, but had a cute, nice boy treated me well I would have jumped for the chance and been his girlfriend. After I was raped by two men, then sexually assaulted by another on the job, not only did I never want to be touched by a man but I developed a fear of men. So what happened to me when I went into transition was about 3 months into the hormones, I suddenly noticed one day that I found the 20-something year old son of a sommalier at a restaurant very attractive. This bothered me quite a bit, and took some adjusting to - I even spoke to my therapist about it in detail. Then later on I noticed that men didn’t scare me any more, at all, and I could stand next them in a crowded elevator, sit right next to them on an airplane, hug, even chastely kiss them “welcome” without having a panic attack. I could even flirt back at men flirting with me. Did my orientation change? No…no, I don’t think so, but I’m now very comfortable around men, and when they come up and flirt with me in bars, or when a nice guy offers me his hand so I can climb onto a bus, or even when a guy puts his arm around me flirting, I can deal with it, no problem.
And to be totally honest here, penises no longer scare me, and they’re not a deal-breaker, in a very certain circumstance: I’ve met a few very sweet and really attractive/super-femme pre-SRS t-girls who if I was single, yeah I would ask out on a date, and their equipment wouldn’t matter to me at all. If it was a “normal guy”…no, I don’t think I’d be attracted to them. But I’ll be damned if I know how to qualify that response: lesbian? Straight? None of the above?
The percentages of those who change are all over the map. I have a few stats but the variation is so high, I don’t know what to trust. The best I can say is that it seems like about 50% +/- 25% of M2Fs have some alteration in their sexual orientation post-transition. Among my friends, the numbers are probably close to that 50%.
I’ve have quite a few transgendered (all M2F) friends here in Japan and met many more. And all those who have stated a preference have said they are into men only.
But surely it’s better to educate the public as to what those terms mean, rather than to continue using terms that many of the people in question find offensive, simply because they’re easier for some to understand.
That’s not necessarily an accurate implication though. It seems to me that “MTF” and “FTM” are routinely used without any real consideration of the present state of the person’s genitalia. Most of the time, nobody besides the trans person themselves is going to know whether or not they have had surgery, and it’s not really anyone else’s business, either, unless the person chooses to make it other people’s business.
I guess I don’t really see the need for a “shorthand” for a person who’s had surgery because 99% of the time I don’t really think there’s a need for anybody else to know whether a person has had surgery. It’s really only relevant to the person themselves, and their partner(s), and for anyone else it’s mainly simple voyeurism.
My views on this have been shaped by the views of trans people I know who find the focus on whether or not they have had surgery really offensive. This video went around quite a bit last year, which well illustrates the point.
