Transgender and sexual orientation

In My Humble Opinion
1

Okay, I can see getting ripped a couple of new ones if this goes down the wrong road of understanding, but I really am confused and wonder if anyone has a coherent answer.

Why would anyone change genders - let’s assume pretty much full physical change, since that seems to be the case in the examples I can think of - and then prefer their new gender as a sexual partner? Even being as open-minded and understanding about the complexities of gender image and roles and orientation and so forth as I can, this just short-circuits in my head.

The classic case, which has bemused me for decades, is the writer Amos Salmonson, who was both gay and an early writer about gay issues in science fiction. He became Jessica Amanda Salmonson, who continued the career of insightful writing of and about “gay science fiction”… and is a lesbian.

More immediately, and although fictional it seems to be a carefully drawn characterization, is “Nomi” from Sense8. We get enormous detail about her life as formerly-Michael, now-Nomi and we’ve seen all but about six square inches of her body. (Since the first scene we saw her in was the infamous splatterdong shot, we can assume she is a truly 100% physical trans.) The character is played by a transgender woman as well.*

And Nomi is quite, quite thoroughly presented as a lesbian.

Maybe I am so rooted in traditional thinking and my “cis-male” viewpoint that I am one with the dinosaurs, but it seems to me that if you find one gender or the other to be sexually appealing, it is better to be the opposite gender so that the maximum number of things work to your advantage, including societal acceptance. To be deeply attracted to men and physically change yourself into a man, or vice versa, seems so convoluted and counterproductive that I can’t wrap my mind around it.

Are sexual identity and sexual preference really that separate in some people? That is, were Salmonson and “Nomi” born lesbians who had the additional hurdle of being born in the wrong-gender body?

How many trans-gender homosexuals are there in the mix?

(* I really don’t know anything about the actor who plays Nomi, Jackie Chapman, as most references refer to her and her life and career exclusively as “she” and only one parenthetical line in WP notes that she was born male. For all I know, Chapman is thoroughly hetero.)

2

I really don’t think there is any better answer than “humans are complicated”.

3

It’s because sexual orientation is a separate trait from gender identity, and societal acceptance is not what controls people’s gender (I mean, if it was, why would anyone be transgender at all?). You can have gender dysphoria while being either straight or gay. This confusion, I believe, is pretty common, and I think it comes from the misconception that transgender people just don’t want to “admit” to being gay.

ETA: Unless I misunderstood your OP - did Salmonson change the gender she was attracted to after transitioning? If so, yeah, I think that’s pretty unusual.

4

That’s the way I see it.

I’m a straight man who is attracted to women. If, by some highly unusual circumstances, I was transformed into a woman, I believe I would still be attracted to women. I wouldn’t go from being a straight man to being a straight woman; I’d go from being a straight man to being a lesbian.

5

But how would a gay man turn into a gay woman?

6

Apparently.

Granted, I’m observing this as a heterosexual ciswoman, but in my limited interaction with transgender people (mostly on-line) sexual preferences can be all over the spectrum. Some stay attracted to the same gender after transition as before, some change preferences after hormones and surgery, and some are more bisexual than any other label.

One such person I have interacted with for years (who, by the way, is not on this forum and never has been), who I knew prior to coming out and transitioning, initially was attracted to women, then dated/lived with a man, and wound up marrying another women so physically she’s a fully transitioned transwoman and in sexual preference is a bisexual, who is now in what is legally considered a same sex marriage, so most people assume she’s a lesbian.

Um, yeah, a little complicated. But they’re happy now, and she’s working on a doctorate so good for her. Happy ending for a change (so far) although there are still all the ordinary problems in life.

People can be complicated and unpredictable. I don’t always understand, but I do try to live and let live.

7

It’s not unheard of for a woman to date/marry men and then at some point well into adulthood enter into a romantic relationship with another woman. Actress Cynthia Nixon is a famous example, but I can think of several women I’ve known personally who did the same thing. I’m not in a position to say whether these women were really lesbians all along, bisexual all along, straight when they were younger but became gay or bi later in life, or whatever, but since there are some cisgender women who used to date men but now date women it’s not terribly shocking to me that there might also be a few transgender women who used to date men but now date women.

Since it’s a old stereotype that gay men are feminine or want to be women, I could also understand how a young transwoman might be confused and wonder “Am I really just a femmey gay guy?” even if she was always attracted to women. I have also heard that some transgender people feel that hormone treatment had an effect on their sexuality, and while I don’t know a lot about the subject it seems plausible to me that this could happen for some people.

8

I would feel it’s unusual but I’m sure it does occasionally happen. I don’t know how common it is. We’ve been provided with only one example.

9

In a CRACKED article a recently transitioned transfemale, she recalls how, as a male, she was so enamored with other girls: it wasn’t because she wanted to have them…she realized she wanted to BE them.

10

I suspect that in reality sexual orientation categories for most people are not as set in stone as conventional wisdom would have it.

That, and in a desire to fit in it’s not unknown for homosexuals to engage in heterosexual relationships for years… given the problems experienced by transgender people it wouldn’t surprise me if some of them attempt to conform to an orientation that isn’t ideal for them in an attempt to sort out their problems.

11

Seems like we have been over this like 50 times recently. Is it really that complicated that gender and orientation are different things?

12

Well, my co-workers sure don’t get it…

13

Not in the specific way I asked the question, no. The discussions have covered a lot of the ground but I don’t recall seeing a specific ask/answer about transgender homosexuality. I concede there is an explanation in that gender identity and preference are only loosely linked, if not completely distinct in some people, but it still blows my mind.

14

My understanding is that there are three completely separate developmental points, and they only have a partial connection if any:

  1. The genetic coding laid down at conception is intended to produce a child of a particular physical gender. Due to a bunch of reasons, it’s not always male/female, but indeterminate or otherwise confused, so the flat-out genetics is not the hard & fast answer people would like it to be.

  2. During gestation, there’s a point in time where the fetus attempts to create gonads (and a few other things) based off of the above genetic coding (but see: indeterminate or otherwise confused…). The fetus’s best efforts can be sidetracked by dietary, environmental or other conditions such that it is just plain not able to satisfy the work order specified by the genetics, and you again end up with something other than what the DNA says should happen.

  3. At some other time (some say between the ages of 3 and 6), once the growing person has learned all the huge motor skills & cognitive stuff and is starting to build mental connections and learning cause & effect, the child seems to develop or recognize or learn, by virtue of comparing itself to others, that (a) the child should be a particular physical gender and (b) the child wants to hang out with a particular gender. This is when we’re seeing people first identify as transgender, gay, straight or cisgender, and all the various combinations thereof, in addition to the possibility of all/none of the above depending on how everything’s gone so far.

So, the type of person someone is romantically attracted to doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with genetics or personal preference, or what kind of body parts they are supposed to have or that they think they are supposed to have.

15

That straightens out the discussion nicely, thanks.

I guess I retain some skepticism about the first, though. I haven’t read widely or deeply enough to be truly informed, but the impression I carry right now is that a lot of the “indeterminate/confused” opinion is not well supported by science - that some of it may be well-intentioned but unproven, and that some of it may be a bit on the handwaving, woo and justification side.

There are unquestionably some XX/XY variations in development, but I am skeptical of the idea that someone with one set or the other could “really” be the other gender in biological development at the microbiological level. Especially as the mind is plastic enough that #3 goes a very long way in explaining sexual and gender preference.

16

I can’t answer this question, but isn’t the most famous one ever, Caitlyn Jenner, a lesbian?

17

I haven’t seen, and can’t find any reference to her preference or partners.

But then, I notice the entire web has been edited to update “he/him” to “her/her,” which is something I find troubling and almost Orwellian.

I understand the respect and identity issues… but she didn’t win the '76 decathlon. She can certainly talk about winning that event… now.

Excuse me, the other apatosaurs want me to come out and play. :rolleyes:

18

I think that a the most typical example of what you are talking about is a transfemale who is married to another woman and stays married after transition. I have known of several of these cases and it seems that there would be more except that the spouse often has trouble with changing her perceived orientation. From the transgender person’s perspective, however, she is in love with a woman but feels that she should be a woman and transitioning has no effect on who she is attracted to or in love with.

This article shows how the two things can be so independent.

19

I know a number of transpeople, and it is generally agreed that gender identity and sexual orientation are two separate things. I do know of a couple where it is a trans man and a trans woman who are together, which means that they are both still heterosexual.

IIRC, Chaz Bono did admit that he identified as lesbian before realizing that he was transgender. He is now considered heterosexual instead. It’s fairly common.

20

No. Caitlyn has said that she was always attracted to women in the past, but doesn’t know whether she will be attracted to men or to women once she is living as a woman, and that romantic relationships are low on her list of priorities right now.

BTW, she did win the 1976 decathlon. At the time she was assigned a male gender, but she has made it clear that even at that time, she felt that she was a woman.