What they mean is that, just because there’s no evidence of it doesn’t mean that it hasn’t happened. American soldiers don’t own a monopoly on cruel human behavior.
ETA: I haven’t seen any of them either. That’s why I asked (and I’m glad I did).
Which is exactly what I was saying.
Good advice. Let’s hope such advice is being shared with the friends, family, and countrymen of the victims, that they maintain appropriate calm.
What I don’t understand is, why would these people take pictures of what they’re doing? I mean, they should have known nothing good would come out of it. That’s just plain stupid.
I know! Being outraged over torture is soooo 2004! I mean, gawd! Whatever!
Well, it is if you think there’s something wrong with what they were doing.
Having a photograph of an activity means the activity was just “unleashed”, now?
I’d like it noted that my only objection is to the overly-presumptuous “what have we unleashed” wailing. Only people who invent A-bombs and cultivate new viruses and start political movements and such get to say that with any seriousness.
The picture might be used for training or to intimidate other prisoners.
The difference is we have long claimed to be a nation with principals and ethics. We have claimed to be better. When we get caught doing this crap it shows we are liars and our credibility is gone. We knew other nations did this stuff. We loudly proclaimed that we did not. That makes it different.
I was just reading an FBI report from 2004 obtained through FOIA. It discussed how the FBI was called into Abu Ghraib to help with detainee intake. It reads, in part:
For some reason this really drove the point home to me. What colossal negligence. What absolute idiots. And that’s aside from the torture, authorized and unauthorized. Or not entirely aside, really. In some cases, they resorted to torture precisely because they had no idea what was going on with a given detainee. They had to rely so heavily on the detainee’s own testimony that sleep deprivation, humiliation, stress positions, etc. were a matter of policy–and the rest of it was a matter of perceived necessity.
And while it is wrong, IMHO, to torture even bad people, the fact that we didn’t know who most of these people were should remove all doubt about how fucked up this was.
No one with command responsibility over Abu Ghraib ought to be out of prison right now.
Just shows you the world that these people lived in. It wasn’t a world of logic as you would define it. It was a world with its own internal logic and morality. It was a world were these people had no shame in what they were doing. The enemy had been sufficiently de-humanised for this to be OK. Don’t fool yourself in thinking that this is anything new. You have to de-humanise the enemy to be able to kill them easily face to face. You’re just seeing the ugly side of your own people. It aint pretty but it’s nothing new.
IIRC, there was previous mention that the warders at Abu G were advised by someone in a military intelligence capacity (contractors? spooks? Dunno…) that these detainees were to be interrogated a bit later. It was hinted at (nod, wink) that it might be a Good Thing if the detainees were “softened up” a bit before the process began, thus handing a Junior G-Man badge to otherwise unqualified personnel. However, the context was falsely clarified, as if it were already established that these detainees were enemy combatants with vital information that might be useful, might save an American life.
So, for one question, why were they taking the photos? They were proud of what they were doing.
The point is, when else do we know for sure that Americans did these things, especially institutionally.
:rolleyes: I didn’t wail anything. This genuinely bothers the hell out of me. If you don’t think it’s so bad that’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it, but kindly stay the fuck away from mine.
See Richard Parker’s post for one of the major reasons that this whole disaster sends chills down my spine. Imagine being kidnapped by foreigners while walking down the street and being held and tortured for years. Horror movies are made of less.
Indeed. The only problem with that is that the only people who seemed to actually believe that bullshit was Americans. You have a system of government that on the face of it is one of the open in the world. That doesn’t change your people though. US/European/Asian/Africans will carry out horrible actions on their fellow man if they feel they are allowed to do it. Systems and laws have to be in place to stop that. We in the west talk the talk A LOT but when push comes to shove throw all our good intentions out the windows.
Excuse me.
“Bemoaning.”
It’s somebody giving the thumbs-up next to a purple-black decomposing corpse.
Probably so they could take them out later and reminiscence. So that they would have more than memories to gloat over. Probably, in quite a few cases so they could take them home and share with friends and family.
Thus the anticipation that Bush will veto the CIA anti-torture law. Somehow it is OK for the CIA to torture people.
Proud is the word. They were fighting the good fight. The following image is one of the strongest and most moving(in a negative way)I have ever seen.
WARNING the image below is of a crowd surrounding the burnt body of a black man who has previous to the burning been lynched.
There is pride in those faces. People leaning in to be in the picture. That cunt just left of centre, toasting and smiling like a cat that got the cream. “Look at what we did. Aren’t we just great”. Bastards ever one, but normal joe soaps who probably went home and told their kids to treat the old with respect and pray to an ever loving God.
What I wouldn’t give to find out those were photoshopped. The woman with the thumbs up over the rotting corpse. The guy who looked like he was covered in shit, forced to pose.
Times like this-I’m NOT proud to be an American. (gasp!)