Human trafficking is hardly exclusive to Muslims.
Beyond that, all religions have elements that aren’t in step with modernity and that’s true of both the Dharmic and Abrahamic faiths.
the man can **legally **keep that bought out under-aged girl as one of his multiple wives in Saudi Arabia.
This maybe true. but the extent to which this applies to Islam (even in Rich countries) is incomparable with other religions.
Could he do it in Turkey? Indonesia? Bangladesh? (We’ve already seen evidence that he could not do it in Morocco.) All those are lands with majority Muslim populations that do not permit such behavior.
Making that an issue with Islam is simply cherry-picking isolated facts while ignoring overall reality.
Nah. That is the sort of crap that loons like Daniel Pipes likes to spout, but it is not really true. I suppose that by “Rich” you actually mean more developed countries. In general, the less developed a country, (or a region in a country), the more likely that believers will adhere to a strict, (and often excessively patriarchal), culture and will shape their religious beliefs to follow the same trends. This is true for all cultures and religions. People who buy into Islamaphobia tend to concentrate on learning as many bad things as they can recite about Islam while failing to bother to see the same traits in other religions.
I didn’t mean that all Islamic nations have sexism prevalent . Certainly Turkey is one nation which other Islamic nation should look up to. Although Bangladesh is quickly going down the Pakistan way if the recent protests and killings and comments by many liberal Bangladeshis are to be believed.
I am talking about Sexism anywhere that can be directly attributed to religion.
Let us see GDP(PPP) per capita which should be a fair indicator of economic status:
Saudi Arabia has this nearly same as Greece\Portugal.
Iran has nearly same as Brazil.
Pakistan has nearly same as Laos.
Egypt has nearly same as Paraguay.
Now lets see the Global Gender Gap Report 2012comprising 135 countries which puts these nations at the bottom of the rankings with Iran 127th, Egypt 126th, Morocco 129th, Saudi 131st, Pakistan 134th.
But I explicitly reject the notion that wealth equals development. Far too much wealth can be attributed to accidental location–Saudi Arabia being the prime example.
And, again, sexism appears to be related to cultural development. There is rampant violence against women in the Hindu regions of India, specifically where the societal structures resemble the societal structures of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and other “Muslim” lands.
Wrong. Saudi Arabia and Iran have very good infrastructure and about zero percent poverty. Iran specially, is a beautiful country.
As per Global Gender Gap Report 2012, out of bottom 16 nations, 15 are where Islam is the dominant religion:
And apparently it shows Turkey also near the bottom. India is a complex case. Its a huge country and distribution of wealth is a major major problem, for ex., its GDP PPP per capita is nearly 1.5 times Pakistan but poverty in India is ~30% where as poverty in Pak is ~21%. Then, India also has 14-15% Muslim population and different laws for them(polygamy is allowed only for Muslim men in India) which pulls down its gender equality score. Dowry system, which is THE main reason for gender gap is practiced by everyone, not just Hindus. But be sure, with economic development, it will resemble the nations which are better ones for women.
Ibn Warraq, I have a few questions for you that pertains to your intellectual honesty in this thread:
Where was Reza Aslan born?
When did he come to reside in America?
How old is he now?
You claimed him as somewhat of an Islamic authority.
Hank Beecher called him a “Westerner”.
In Post #131 you replied “He is ‘Simply another Westerner’? He’s from Tehran. Since when did Tehran become part of the west?”
An easy search showed that while Reza Aslan was indeed born in Tehran, he moved to America with his family while he was age 7. He has lived in (and grown up in) America for the last 33 years.
I call Shenanigans on your claiming that Reza Aslan is not a Westerner.
If you consider 25% to be zero, then I guess you can claim that Saudi Arabia has zero poverty. That is hardly how I would describe it. Their infrastructure is paid for by the accident of sitting on the world’s largest petroleum reserves and indicates nothing about development.
Iran is a special case, being run by an oligarchy that is explicitly choosing a variety of Islam that seeks its core values in a rural, pastoral, patriarchal culture that is at odds with the rest of the country and is not representative of “Islam,” per se.
And 18 of 20 of the bottom countries (in this scale that is dominated by economic considerations) are in or adjacent to the M.E.N.A. region with the rural, pastoral, patriarchal cultures that I have already noted are the better bellwethers of poor treatment of women.
So, in India, you make an exception that is actually based on my observations that it is the culture, not the religion, that determines the behavior of the people.
This thread is a prime grade A instance of a grotesque and ignorant counterfeit of egalitarianism. This new bird species sings of it’s desire to protect the weak, mocking the song of liberal tradition, except in this version the protection from criticism of the very weakest and most harmful of sacred ideas is more gallant than the protection of children from rape and slavery.
I don’t get it. Okay, I criticize Mohammed for what he did. I criticize David and Solomon and Moses for some of the things they did. Even Jesus and the Buddha. So what? Where is the meat and potatoes here? Really good people sometimes do bad things. Is there anyone, anywhere, who has said, “Because Mohammed married a very young girl, it’s okay for me to marry a very young girl?”
The country I live in has laws against it. Children are protected. What do you want? A world government?
Nah. It is more an example of someone who is so filled with rage at one type of injustice that he would rather ignore facts and logic so that he can demonstrate his rage (and prove how he is morally “superior”) by condemning people who have no part in the injustice on the basis of really tenuous connections.
[. . . shrug . . .]
Trinopus - well, there’s this: The British child brides: Muslim mosque leaders agree to marry girl of 12... so long as parents don't tell anyone | Daily Mail Online
Now you may question the source, but if the British Home Office has had to deal with this through a ‘Forced Marriage Unit’, there seems to be something there.
And this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/africanlives/ivory/ivory.htm
And this: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/child-brides/gorney-text/2
I did a 3 second search for: “Modern Muslim defense for marrying child brides” and came up with these, while ignoring any responses from blogs or any site that seemed to be non-mainstream media.
If you are interested in looking into this, I’m sure you can come up with much more.
Muhammad was a Catholic priest???
My bad. A couple of sources which I referred had “NA” mentioned in front of Saudi Arabia.
Its population has grown from 6 million in 1970 to 28m now. Fast population growth breeds inequality. It may still be less than 25% . 2-4 million poor comes to around 7-14% of 28 million. Nonetheless, Iran also specifically calls itself an Islamic republic has about zero poverty.
I am not a religious person nor do I intend to defend Hinduism but dowry system is not exclusive to Hinduism in India and it is practiced here irrespective of religion. Caste system and Sati(has been eradicated) can be attributed to Hinduism. Similarly, male polygamy, burqa, random fatwas etc can be attributed to Islam. My point is - Other religions have evolved\reformed over time or have been subjugated by modernity, economical progress etc. and this process continues.But the same can not be said about Islam in many nations or atleast the pace at which its happening(if its happening) is not comparable with other religions.
Thanks for the references… A bit depressing… I’d say the issue should be addressed by law, as it already is in the “industrialized democracies,” and in other places, we should be using the process of social criticism, in the same way we’re trying to eliminate the practice of female genital mutilation, or honor killings, or denial of education to women, etc. etc. The world still has some growing up to do…
Yes, what a shock.
There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and some of them do horrible things!
Who do they think they are!?
Christians!?
You accused him of posting as if he was a devout Muslim.
That is an exceptionally stupid interpretation of his comments that’s not borne out by the facts.
Ok, let me get this straight. You’re accusing someone who chooses the username Ibn Warraq of posting as if “all the followers of Islam are absolutely innocent of any offence(sic) ever”?
That makes little sense.
It makes even less sense since on this thread I’ve referred to Muhammad defending both spousal abuse and slavery.
I’ll reiterate Monty’s challenge to show where I could reasonably be accused of behaving as you accuse me of.
It’s possible to be both westerner and a Middle Easterner.
There are plenty of us.
By the way, if you’re going to accuse me of being a liar, please do so in the pit so I can respond properly.
How is it, precisely, that you hold religion, especially one so influential as Islam and particularly in the region you’re speaking of, to be divorced from the culture?