Interesting. What would you call legal non-consensual sex then?
As far the actions of Uncle Mo, if the term rape doesn’t apply because it wasn’t illegal, how about molestation?
Hank: I don’t look too kindly on the whitewashing of someone who had sex with children, but you’re taking this into No True Scotsman territory. There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians who do not even believe in the literal truth of things in the freakin’ Bible, let alone all the collected writings about the saints, for instance. I see no reason that this should not be the case for Islam as well.
The point of the thread is that Muslims are forced to argue that sex between a fifty something year old man and a nine year old girl is not rape, but the actions of the most moral and ideal man to ever have lived, a model man for all times. Or, they can deny these Hadith, which no Muslim scholar with any authority can deny and still keep their authority. To deny this behavior is to be a Munkir-e-Hadith, a Hadith rejector. ie Not a Muslim. That’s where Muslims themselves draw the line, for the most part.
Then it is interesting that you grabbed onto this particular little story–one used pretty much exclusively by people who choose to bash Islam–to pose as a debate.
“This” is “truth”?
The story is told with any number of variants, (such as discrepancies of the girl’s age), with all sorts of interpretations, (such as that the the couple did or did not engage in sexual relations), with a smattering of anachronistic observations, (statutory rape in England in that period or a bit later was set at 10 years of age–not a huge difference from the earliest (disputed) age of Aisha’s purported sexual activities). Beyond that, the provenance of the various Hadith tales are not that thoroughly established that we need to accept them as “true.”
So, explain why you think that this discussion is so necessary that it absolves you from joining a chorus of bigotry against Muslims?
Just what is the point of this discussion, if not to stir up a chorus of bigotry against Muslims?
It should be but it is not. The fact that she was nine years old is the consensus of people who call themselves Muslim, and the opinion of every early source* and every scholar with any influence in the general Muslim world. The few arguments to the contrary are obvious revisionist attempts to placate modern and Western sensibilities, which makes them the opposite of Islam, to most Muslims.
*As far as I know, and except for one early reference to her maybe being 10.
I think it’s time Christians accept the blame for God shacking up with somebody else’s wife.
Yes, you are.
And here you’re just flat making up definitions. Not every word out of Mohammed’s mouth is considered to be the Qur’an. And, the hadith are not just the words of Muhammed and descriptions of his habits; they’re discussions throughout the entire history of Islam. Unsurprisingly, some of those hadith disagree with others.
And, yes, your choice of wording is calculated to be offensive to Muslims. I question, then, your assertion that you don’t want to join some anti-Islam “chorus,” unless, of course, you’re already in one (which seems likely) and thus do not need to join it.
How, exactly, did that happen? Try not to cite someone who is some fallible human in your answer, please.
I don’t accept them as true, what is true is that the consensus among influential scholars is that she was nine. No one claims that those English pedophiles’ behavior was, by definition, perfect.
I have the same knee jerk reaction to want to defend Muslims as you. They are persecuted minorities in many places. The prophet and the Koran are parts of their identity, so any criticism of either is sure to be taken personally. It’s just that he more I study Islam the more I realize how harmful Islam is to Muslims, and the more I realize that what we in the West have been pretending is tolerance in regards to criticism of Islam is actually cowardice, at least a bit of it.
So as someone who has no problem basically saying I think Islam is a horrible, terrible thing I would like to know:
What is the factual consensus on this issue? Instead of quibbling over someone using a wikipedia quote, is it true or false that there is a consensus amongst Muslim scholars that:
-Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old
-That it was acceptable behavior and epitomises that of the ideal Muslim man
That should be an easy true or false, either there is general consensus or there is no consensus.
Edit to add: Because I don’t want someone having a fit, I feel similarly about all organized religions. I don’t think they are a really good thing in this day and age, but I do think the core philosophies (including those of Islam) of these religions have value and are worth studying and some are worth incorporating in a set of moral guidelines. But I view all superstitious beliefs negatively.
I didn’t say that every word was in there. Koran=word of God, pretty good basic all purpose definition, which can of course be elaborated on.
There are different levels of authenticity, and the most authentic are the collections of Bukhari and Muslim.
I don’t blame you at all for your assumptions, I would think the same. All I can say is that I don’t want Muslims to suffer from any kind of bigotry. In my opinion the most harmful thing in the lives of Muslims is their religion, and I don’t know how to challenge it if we can’t even talk about it frankly, in the same critical, sometimes mean, sometimes hilarious manner that Christianity is discussed and mocked. I think much or maybe most of the freedom I have is due to the freedom to be critical of religion, freedom won by other people. Can we pay it forward somehow and help Muslims? I don’t know.
The term of art for what you’re doing here is “concern trolling”.
You have evidence of my motivations?
I have your behaviour in this thread.
More silliness. You have no idea who you are talking about when you throw out the insult “English pedophiles.” It is just stuff for you to say so that you can pretend to have some high moral stance when you actually are ignorant of the topic.
I have no knee-jerk reaction to want to defend Muslims. I do have a natural distrust of poorly formed arguments that are designed to belittle any people and more so when the author is using the tired old “I am not a racist/sexist/ageist/classist/whatever, BUT. . .” line of exposition.
Then you really need to spend significantly greater time and energy actually studying Islam rather than simply reading hate sites such as thereligionofpeace.com or jihadwatch.org.
Your posts on the topic, thus far, indicate a serious ignorance of Islam:
For one thing, the Hadiths are ignored by several Muslim sects. Claiming that “Islam” is “harmed” by the Hadiths is rather like saying that “Chrisitianity” is “harmed” by the Apocrypha despite a number of Christian denominations rejecting the Apocrypha, outright. If you are not aware that the Hadiths are not universally revered throughout all of Islam, then you really need to do much more study before you make pronouncements about Islam.
As to your claims about “cowardice,” they are pretty clearly an outright contradiction of your earlier claim that you have some knee-jerk desire to defend Muslims.
For those who are sufficiently interested in the Aisha story, the following article gives a brief introduction:
The truth about Muhammad and Aisha.
Which shows that I am being critical of Islam. The only critical part though is labeling of the act of sex between fifty something Muhammad and nine year old Aisha as rape or molestation. As much as it sounds like a smear, saying it happened, according to Islamic tradition, is not a smear, but merely descriptive of Islam.
What this means is that the people forcing millions of girls into child marriages in the name of Islam are not, as I have always assumed, misinterpreting Islam. They are following the example of Muhammad.
Your whole pose of concern for Islam, along with the tone of surprised discovery of a disagreeable truth about it, is really quite obvious, especially when that disagreeable “truth” is a common slur repeated by bigots.
For this assertion to be true, you would need to be able to quote actual Muslims pointing to the marriage of Aisha in defense of their actions. Can you?
Further, your assertion that there really are “people forcing millions of girls into child marriages in the name of Islam” appears to be without foundation.
Do you have actual references indicating that there really are “millions of girls” being forced into “child marriages”? Are the numbers of such marriages much different than the numbers for similar marriages in other societies with similar socio-economic backgrounds? (For example, IF you can point to some number of Muslim child brides in Bosnia, can you demonstrate that those numbers are different than the number of Orthodox child brides in Serbia or Catholic child brides in Croatia?)
I have no doubt that there are regions of the world where young girls are married out to older men. I have no doubt that some of those locations include majority Muslim populations. However, for you to have a point, (beyond bashing Islam), you need to be able to demonstrate that they are widespread in Muslim majority lands while absent (or more rare) in non-Muslim lands. Otherwise, you are creating a great straw man to burn down for the sheer joy of joining a chorus of bigotry against Islam.
You have no idea what you are talking about here. I have been to the masjid, thanks for the concern.
Saying this shows an ignorance of my posts because I did not say it.
As I said there are different levels of authenticity attributed to different collections, the most authentic and universally accepted are Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.
No they are not. If I was ever stuck in a religion that idolizes a rapist and punishes those who leave with death I would want for people with the ability to speak out to do so.
You have cited a news article that cites “some modern scholars” without naming them. Yeah, some scholars with very little authority, and only in modern times. In other words, this is revisionism with the intent to soften the image of Islam in the West, and is seen as such in the Muslim world. The Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths are in Aisha’s own words, and have the highest levels of authenticity. I think it would be great if scholars with actual influence came to this opinion, or that people who rejected this example somehow gained influence, but we are nowhere near that point.
A good way to confirm this is to look for the oldest source possible for these claims. They only show up after Muslims encounter English speaking people critical of Muhammad for his relationship with Aisha.
Yeah, if it bigot ever says something then anyone who also states what they say is also a bigot, gotcha.