It has been that way for many Christians in times past. Many culturally Christian atheists, doubters, and critics have died so that Jesus may be mercilessly lampoon on South Park. At this point in history it is the culturally Muslim atheist bloggers who are dying.
I concede that the last sentence of the OP does not apply to all Muslims. Do you conceded point number two?
Without even reading further into this thread, I feel safe on giving 5:8 odds that Hank Beecher (Why does the term Hee-bees come to mind when I read his drivel?) will say that verse has been abrogated?
Sharia Law has led to the legislation of child marriage in 6 countries.
What do you mean “to begin with”? Like way back, oh say, 1400 years ago?
What are your qualifications to determine that they are incorrectly interpreting their source texts?
What you don’t get is that you are seeing the whole thing from your point of view. You have your circular logic and true believers have their own different kind, and you are assuming they use yours. You give Islam the benefit of the doubt of being generally benign and peaceful, so if something nasty is being justified by it, it must be a mis-interpretation. A person who assumes that the commandments of god and the actions of the prophet are perfection sees things differently. If he sees something that makes his stomach turn he gives god the benefit of the doubt, and assumes that the horrible thing is actually a good thing that his limited, human rational mind can not understand.
This is not some cherry-picked backwater interpretation, this is the Sharia.
Sure since it only happens in Nigeria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Niger, and Sudan, its not really a big deal.
It is part of Sharia, because the prophet (is said to have) did it.
Is very many a good enough answer?
(The last lecture is in Urdu, I think he is confirming the ages 6 and 9, “che” and “nau”)
This is the most influential guy that I can find who is challenging the Bukhari hadiths. He is not challenging that it is the traditional interpretation, he claims it is a fabrication that has been added to embarrass Muslims, and claims Muslims “need to be brave enough to admit it.”
He says he has no problem with the age nine though, he does not consider that to be embarrassing. He is challenging the fact that there could have been any kind of marriage or engagement at six.
Note that this potential reform is a reaction to ridicule from outside of the Muslim world.
That was the best you could find?
You’d never heard of Reza Aslan?
He’s the author of No God But God and a professor at one of the UC schools.
Did you decide he doesn’t count because he’s a Shia?
From the trivial coincidences desk:
Just yeterday I was reading a book (The Ark of the Covenant by Grierson and Munro-Hay) and came upon
I remember thinking she must have been a young bride but passed on… The very next day I open this thread. :dubious:
You are aware that in the medieval world, and even today in the Arab world in some places, there are child marriages in which there is an expectation (or even enforcement by marriage contract) that it will not be consummated until post-puberty?
Which isn’t to say that it was the case here: it’s up for debate since there are certain historical views that it was consummated before then.
I just don’t care enough to look into it one way or another. It’s not as if the Muslim world makes this an important part of their theology. It would simply make me look down on the historical dude moreso than I already do. Just like the philanderings of MLK make me look down on him, and even make me embarassed about his hagiography that children receive in school, but does not take away from his other work, whether that work be good or bad.
Well, unsurprising. With that mindset you’d have been a whee of a public prosecutor in Salem in 1692. “If you are not a witch, then you have no reason to try to convince anyone that you aren’t a witch. Only the guilty try to defend themselves!”
:rolleyes:
How often do you think sociology professors from California state colleges are cited at Al Azhar University?
This is simply another Westerner repeating the same revisionist claims to a Western audience.
He is “simply another westerner”?
He’s from Tehran.
Since when did Iran become part of the West.
Not exactly. It is my understanding that the mainstream view of sharia today is that marriage contracts can not be consummated until the beginning of puberty, and that like you say it is up for debate whether this has always been the case.
It is the basis for the allowance in sharia law for children as young as 9 years old to raped by their “husbands”. There are armed groups/state factions attempting and succeeding in implementing sharia to various degrees in Sudan, Saudia Arabia, Yemen, Mali, Tunisia, Egypt, Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Syria. Plus all of the places I left out.
Historically we don’t have enough evidence to consider this account of Aisha’s marriage to be any more than a possibility.
Where was he educated, where does he teach, and who his is audience?
[QUOTE=his wikpedia]
Aslan’s family came to the United States from Tehran in 1979, fleeing the Iranian Revolution. He grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. In the early 1990s, Aslan taught courses at De La Salle High School in Concord, California.
In August 2000, while serving as the Truman Capote Fellow at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, Aslan was named Visiting Professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Iowa, becoming the first full-time professor of Islam in the history of the state.[6] After the September 11 attacks, Aslan put his expertise of the Middle East to work for both the university and the greater Iowa community by traveling throughout the state speaking to public and private organizations, businesses, churches, mosques, and universities. His efforts in Iowa received national attention in such periodicals as USA Today, U.S. News & World Report, and The Chronicle of Higher Education.
[/QUOTE]
I had a good friend in high school who’s family was among those who fled the Iranian revolution, and yes, he was a Westerner then, and certainly is now, 20+ years after we graduated. He loves ZZ Top and AC/DC and freedom, in Iran his family was very secular, that’s why they fled the revolution!
I’m not going to watch youtube videos to figure out your cites for you, and certainly not in Urdu.
So no. A handful of videos you found on youtube (youtube? Really?) are not a good enough answer. You are claiming this is the mainstream, accepted, undeniable view. I want actual scholarly evidence.
That is because child rapists are considered even worse than pimps. There are many other parts of the Koran and hadiths that are obviously incompatible with our modern value system: commandments in the Koran for men to beat their wives, the sex slave business you refer to, the general warlording and massacres, violently destroying other peoples religions, ect. But no part of the story of Mo makes it more glaringly obvious that he is a horrible example to follow than his rape of Aisha.
If a real reformist movement develops in Islam it is likely to originate over this embarrassing issue. If these most authentic hadiths can be called into question, then so can any others. And (it is the consensus among Muslims) without hadiths there is no Islam, despite minor attempts.
I didn’t realize that one couldn’t be a real Muslim if one likes ZZ Top and AC/DC.
What other rock bands are considered Harraam?
Can one like the Rolling Stones, or at least the Beatles?
Muslim scholars use video to communicate, it should not be that surprising. These are Muslim scholars with authority in the Muslim world speaking to Muslims. The Wikipedia page on Aisha also has citations. Others have been provided in this thread, as well as evidence that this part of Mo’s bio is widely used to justify child rape. If you refuse to consider evidence I do not know what else to do.
You have some seriously mobile goal posts there murtad.
I did not say he wasn’t a Muslim, I sad he was a Westerner, based on the fact that he was raised and educated in the West, and is employed in the West.
Of course guitar rockIS considered haraam by many, despite ZZ tops awesome beards, but that is another thread.
Yes modern music is considered haraam.
That’s why videos like this don’t play 24-7 at just about any bar throughout the Middle East including Saudi Arabia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpz9GECIVes