Achoo! Is it a bit dusty in here?

The BBQ Pit
21

I must say that i agree. The people who are referring to Monty’s behaviour in other threads are actually only serving to make his point for him–that is, we develop certain impressions of other Dopers based on their actions, and these impressions have an effect on the way that we treat their arguments. This is only human. If someone disguises who they were/are on this Board, it becomes difficult to call them on past indiscretions or current hypocrisies.

Personally, if i thought that i needed to make a fresh start on these boards–whether because i felt i had been an ass, or that people had been unfair to me–i would start a thread stating that i was going to try to change my behaviour and put past animosities behind me. I would then ask other Dopers if they would be willing to wipe the slate clean and start over. My impression is that most people on these boards are mature and reasonable enough to respond favourably to such an overture.

As Monty suggests, there is still time for the Doper in question to make a public announcement about this issue, so we shouldnt hang her just yet. But changing one’s username without telling other Dopers is rather suspicious, IMO.

22

Excuse me, hajario, mhendo, I changed my username without notice for reasons relating to privacy and security. Under the circumstances, it hardly made sense for me to go to MPSIMS and say “[old user name] is now Siege”.

lynn73 hasn’t been back to this board since I flamed her, as far as I know, and, as Polycarp said, I have been corresponding with her privately. She has made two rather major changes, which is not easy for her, and I think she’s genuinely trying to figure things out. The mere fact that she didn’t flounce out of here as she has in the past should be a point in her favor, regardless of how many hundreds of points are against her.

Folks, we are asking a naive, none-too-bright woman to radically rethink everything she has been taught. Tactics which she’s been told should work not only aren’t working, they’re blowing up in her face. She knows she’s pretty thoroughly disliked around here, and I think she genuinely doesn’t understand why. Remember, she’s no good at the “How would you feel if X did that to you?” game. I’ve been hated for doing what I genuinely believe was the right thing, and it’s an aweful and confusing place. It also tends to reinforce one’s stubbornness. I’ve done my share of the full, pouting, “But it’s still not right!”, complete with lip sticking out into the next county, although, in my defense, I was a teenager at the time.

Please, folks, give her a chance when and if she returns. I’ve reminded her that not only can I match her experience for experience when it comes to evidence of our religion in my life, Polycarp and I both believe our lives were saved by miracles. It is extremely difficult for her to grasp that two people who follow the same faith and worship the same God can have such radically different approaches.

By the way, she has explained her take on the “traitor to God” line to my satisfaction, and I think she understands that I’m as likely to seek popularity for its own sake as I am to be “a tall, black, homosexual male” as I put it to her in an e-mail.

I’m not sure if she is capable of change, but she’s working on it. As has been noted in GD, education is one way to cure the more ignorant forms of Fundamentalism, and insulting a person is not a good way to make someone want to learn.

CJ

23

By the way, lynn73 told me that she asked that her posting privileges be suspended, to make it harder for her to post here. That’s one reason I believe she’s serious about making a fresh start. Again, please give her a chance.

CJ

24

Siege, your situation was very different than lynn73’s. Let’s not compare apples to oranges. Please re-read my post and see how I qualified it.

If she asked for a second chance and sincerely tried to change her ways, I am certain that the request would have been accepted and she would have been given that second chance. No name change was necessary.

Haj

25

Yes, but I’m not sure she realized that. Remember, she’s not all that bright, especially compared to some folks around here. At least Polycarp and I talked her out of simply registering under a second name.

CJ

26

Monty, you may have missed this post:

Looks like the ice is getting thinner.

27

Desmostylus: And you must’ve missed the time stamps on that comment.

So, shove it.

28

I have to say, Monty, that I’m completely unable to understand what your last post is supposed to mean.

29

I see this as an irrelevant argument, as i don’t really think many people are calling for her not to be given a chance. I’m all for giving her an opportunity to make a fresh start, no matter what username she decides to post under. I thought i made that clear in my other post.

But, as hajario suggested, changing your username because you fear that your privacy may have been compromised is somewhat different from changing it in an effort to paper over your online persona. The only point i was trying to make is that the jury is still out on the exact motivation behind the name change. If it’s an attempt to put a bad past behind her and start again, i’m all for it. If, on the other hand, it turns out to be an attempt to continue the same behaviour under a new name, then i think it’s a bad thing. I’ll reserve judgement until i see the new, improved, 25% more effective lynn73.

30

I, also, fail to understand this. Manhattan’s post in the other thread was made about six hours after this thread was started. what is the relevance?

31

Seige, with all due respect (and not having a dog in this fight btw) you have TWICE mentioned that lynn73 is “none-too-bright” (or, “not all that bright”). Now, where I come from, that is a pretty severe put-down of a person. Actually, it is incredibly rude.

Considering your other defence of her (which may I say I find a most decent thing to do), this sort of ‘rider’ is very unbecoming.

If I were lynn73 reading that, I would be wondering who my allies really were.

32

There are two points I feel led to make with regard to this thread:

  1. I believe that His/lynn (the lady Pitted in the OP) has been telling the truth as she has been led to understand it throughout her posting history here, and, from her own perspective, from the best of motives – for the saving of people’s immortal souls. The idea that “good Christian leaders” might lie about those whom they consider as “enemies of the faith” is one that I think is startling and shocking to her, and one she’s loath to countenance. My impression is that from her own perspective, what she’s been doing is “telling the truth about ‘Mormonism,’ Catholicism, the ‘homosexual agenda,’ etc. And offensive as that may seem to those who know better, I feel that she was motivated by caring, by a desire to expose what she sees as sins and heresies misleading people.

  2. In the paragraph in my post above beginning “I told her…” I note that I inadvertently did not make clear in my statement here that those were my understandings of what the board administration disliked and preferred; I did make sure to make that clear to her in my e-mail.

33

The relevance is that it’s not possible to miss a posting made prior to its being made. At any rate, I’m not giving her shit just because she’s changed her username. I’m giving her shit because she’s been, and appears still to be, a fibbing sack of crap.

The background info provided above about her change tends to show, IMHO, that it’s not made to make a fresh start, but rather because she’s tired of people giving her grief. She was going to, again IMHO, sneak back and continue her own special brand of witnessing to us demon-worshipping heathens. The reason she’s been getting grief is because she’s been a fibbing, hateful, bigoted, intolerant, mindless, unthinking drone. In one of her most recent postings, she completely dismissed every single posting made by LDS, Catholics, and others who’ve deigned to correct her by telling us all that “just because someone says they don’t believe something doesn’t mean that they really don’t,” or words to that effect. She’s shifted the lie, apparently, in her mind, onto everyone else.

But, hey, if she ever comes back AND APOLOGIZES FOR ALL OF HER LIES, then I’ll happily lead the brigade saying,

I’ll even happily assist her in learning about Buddhism, about Comparative Religion, about the historical foundations of the United States, about the current state of interfaith relations, just to name a few.

34

Maybe, but lets wait till it happens first. I mean, you can’t criticize somebody for what you think they’re going to do…just for what they did, and you’ve already criticized her for what she did.

35

kambuckta, please believe me, I wasn’t trying to be insulting or condescending. I was being realistic. Different people have different levels of mental ability, just as different people have different levels of physical ability, and mental ability comes in different forms. lynn73 is not, by her own admission skilled at the kind of critical thinking that dominates on this board, just as I’m not skilled at the kind of thinking it takes to fix a car or grow plants. Look, I got talked into joining Mensa, and I know full well there are people around here who can think me into the ground. I’m also concerned that people are going to accuse her of deliberately and willfully not understanding something when I gather the truth is more likely to be that it’s harder for her to wrap her mind around it. She’s being exposed to new concepts here, and it hasn’t been easy for her.

Look, I fence for a hobby, and I’m a bit of a clutz. When I first started, I perpetually got frustrated because it would take me weeks to learn the simplest move. I still tend to parry with my body rather than a sword, resulting in one dead CJ. I may not have the physical capacity to become a top rank fencer. I’m pretty sure I don’t have the reach, but I still do it and I still enjoy it. I think lynn73’s the same way. She may not have the mental agility or reach to make the top ranks of GD (I’m not sure do, either!), but if she can still enjoy herself and make a reasonable place for herself here, I will support her. :Shoots a glare at Polycarp and iampunha: No jokes about cannon fodder, please. Besides, more accurately, I’m sword fodder! :wink:

Monty, I don’t deny that she’s directly insulted the Church of Latter-Day Saints and the Catholic Church and she’s directly or indirectly me, Polycarp, and probably a significant portion of the rest of the members here, including a young friend of mine who I feel rather protective of. However, continuing to attack her is not going to give her a single incentive to change. She’s told me her motivations behind this, and I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe her, because that’s what my beliefs require me to do. I’ve called her out in public and in private, and I’ll do so again if need be, but I won’t descend to attacking her without current provocation.

By the way, once again, if anyone thinks I was trying to be insulting or succeding in being insulting, that genuinely wasn’t my intent. I was only honestly if clumsily trying to get people to see her for what she is rather than what they might like or expect her to be, if I haven’t put my foot in it again.

CJ

36

Siege:

As I thought I’d made clear earlier in this thread, it’s not her style of posting or her faith or dedication to it–it’s her damn lies about so many of us.

And you know, I don’t care why it’s so damn hard for her to come up with an apology. The faith she’s ordering other people to believe says “don’t tell lies.”

She wants it all in the past? Cool. She apologizes for all the lies and it is. That’s all it will take, and it will only take that.

37

Siege, there are better ways of saying what you meant. If you meant she’s not good at debating, you should have just said so.

A not-so-bright person would have their feelings hurt by what you said.

38

Siege, does she understand that she has lied, even if unintentionally, over and over again without showing remorse? I think that’s the biggest thing to Monty, and I am right up there with him in that complaint.

She has said herself several times that she just doesn’t know enough to debate her faith. In that case it was foolish of her to continue down that path over and over again. How many broken legs does it take to understand that you can’t jump 50 feet without help?

Anyway. I hope she is able to learn. I don’t think, based on what I know of her, that GD would be the best place for her unless the folks there are willing to treat her with kid gloves. And given the few other places there are on this MB for religious witnessing, and the lack (AFAIK) of good religious-minded MBs out there … well, I dunno what else there is.

39

iampunha:

Her unintentional lies are secondary; it’s her intentional lies, the ones she knowingly told, that are the biggest thing to me. When she’s been called on one, she’s knowingly told another. When corrected by one of her usual targets of falsehood, she threatens to “shake the dust.” When flamed at Photon Torpedo level by someone not one of her usual targets of falsehood, did she apologize? Nope. She ducked for cover, but only after making yet more unfounded accusations–this time against them.

I’ve seen the expression, “Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity,” used here. Well, she’s done both: Stupidly parrotted lies someone else told her & knowingly told lies of her own creation.

I’m all for folks learning. Debating, Comparative Religions, etc…worthwhile subjects. When she returns–AND APOLOGIZES–let’s all welcome her back and help her learn. But until that apology appears, she’s just an unrepentant liar, AFAIC.

40

iampunha, Monty, based on what I’ve seen in e-mails from her, I think she honestly, sincerely does not understand that she’s lying about the Church of Latter-Day Saints and the Catholic Church. She has told me she is citing the Book of Mormon. In other words, she just doesn’t get it yet, but I’m quite literally praying that that can change. I’ve had to take a break from our conversations for a while because there are some personal matters which need my attentions, but, since my knowledge of the Church of Latter-Day Saints is limited, Monty, I’d appreciate any help you can give me. I am, I think, making some headway on the Catholic Church. What we’re telling her is, I think, directly contradictory to authorities she knows and trusts and this is a huge problem for her.

There is a religious message board which I used to hang out where she’s happy and comfortable, and it fits her much better than it fit me. I agree that this board probably isn’t the best place for her, and I’ve sometimes wondered why she does return. As I put it to Polycarp last night, when you’re stuck in a vicious circle, sometimes the best thing to do is break it and get out. Unfortunately, Christians aren’t known for their ability at breaking circles.:wink: Bread, of course, is a different matter!

Look, I’m probably a fool and none-too-bright myself for continuing to defend a woman who has stood by and done nothing while others have attacked me. Maybe I should have followed my instincts last night after realizing that I’ve repeatedly stuck my foot in my mouth, and just walked away from this thread, but for some reason, I’m just crazy enough to try. Yes, I understand that there is treatment for this. I’m also worried that anything I say might make things worse. Would someone please make a bookshelf or something useful out of that wood, because right now I find myself wanting to build myself a cross!

Once again, I am sorry my words were offensive. In my clumsy attempts at defense, I’m afraid I’ve fallen face down in the mud again and splattered some bystanders. That wasn’t what I intended.

CJ