It’s not necessary to personally experience quackery in order to pronounce it thus.
But I have tried acupuncture and yes, it’s woo - or as others have termed it, theatrical placebo.
The best and most rigorous clinical trials have consistently found no significant effect for acupuncture for any condition. Sometimes a review of mostly low quality studies without double blinding or adequate placebo controls will suggest a benefit, but not always.
I was referred to a physiatrist. After an MRI with a novacaine-like injection at the spot where the vertebra was pinching the nerve confirmed the diagnosis, he tried several cortisone injections (unsuccessful), then referred me to 3 choices of surgeons (orthopedic surgeons and neurosurgeon).
Start with a Physiatrist…
Unless you need to see a primary care provider for a referral, Dr. Dowdell suggests visiting a physiatrist as your first step. “A physiatrist is the primary care doctor of the back,” he explains. Physiatrists are fully focused on diagnosis and non-surgical treatment of musculoskeletal (muscle and bone) issues, so they may have more specialized knowledge than a PCP. Even if you’ve already told your family doctor about your back pain, it’s a good idea to talk to a physiatrist next—especially if whatever you’ve been trying isn’t working.
https://www.hss.edu/article_what-doctor-to-see-for-back-pain.asp
I added bent-over rows to my workout routine and my lower back has never felt better.
Interesting! I’m going to try those, too.
This! A thousand times this!
You can start small. Sit on a chair and slowly bend down, at the waist, keeping your back arched the whole time. Go as far down as you can (until your upper body is about parallel to the floor), and then sit back up, still keeping your back arched.
This targets the muscles of the lower back, and is called a good morning. You can do them standing, too, and as you get stronger you can progress to adding weight across your shoulders.
Strengthening those muscles will go very far in reducing pain.
Also very true! Exercising the entire midsection is important for reducing back pain.
Don’t be afraid to use weighted resistance when doing abdominal exercises, either. They are muscles, just like biceps or pecs, and so they benefit from the progressive overload of increasing resistance.
And this touches on the larger point, which is that the muscles of the body work in cohesion. So a truly comprehensive exercise plan to address back pain should actually exercise the entire body.
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Another musculoskeletal issue that can lead to back pain is tightness. Try stretching out the hamstrings and glutes to help alleviate some back pain.
Wait…I read your sentence without the word “don’t”
I think strengthening your back is the way to go.
No rigorous study has ever found acupuncture to be anything other than the placebo effect. Various ‘evidence based medicine’ treatments like physical therapy, cortisone shots, etc have repeatedly been proven to work beyond the placeob effect. That, again, woiuld be the difference.
Yes, it could. Or, it could actually have benefits other than the placebo effect as has repeatedly been proven.
I cannot guarantee how long relief from pain and other benefits from drugs and procedures proven to work beyond the placebo effect will last. however they have been repeatedly proven to exist. Again, you cannot say that about accupuncture.
You seem to be saying that rather than spending time and money on treatments that are proven effective, we should just waste money on treatments that have never been shown to work beyond the placebo effect. Is that what you are saying?
I suggest Pilates, which focuses on correct alignment of the spine and strengthening the core (torso) muscles. Those are the ones which in fact support your spine. Pilates began as a method for rehabilitation of war veterans. Still very much in use. Rather than trying to find a treatment, invest in your own body care.
Try to find a practitioner that doesn’t treat it like a fun exercise class but rather addresses your particular physiological problems (initially you might do some private sessions). Also, avoid yoga, the way it is generally taught isn’t safe for many people.
My experience is that acupuncture does help relax muscle groups, which you may find helpful. Lot of woo out there, but acupuncture does have effects on some kinds of pain. Western medicine is shitty for any kind of chronic pain or anything that surgery won’t help. Great for appendicitis, but not for what you describe.
Personally, I don’t see it as “Western” or “Eastern” medicine.
I see it as medicine, and “not medicine but a very effective sales pitch designed to lighten the pocketbook”.
ETA: your post was edited while I was composing, but I’ll leave this here anyway.
It very much depends on what the cause is. Osteoarthritic overgrowth of vertebrae pinching a nerve (causing chronic musculosketal pain) not only can be alleviated surgically, but if it isn’t addressed can lead to permanent paralysis and loss of bowel control when the nerve is too badly blocked.
Sorry, was overgeneralizing. Most back pain doesn’t require surgery, and drugs, which is the other thing western medicine shines at, only covers up underlying causes.
That’s straight out of the doesn’t-address-root-causes woo playbook.
Woo not only is a spectacular failure at treating/preventing illness, it doesn’t have the vaguest notion of what constitutes root causes.
I think you misspelled “evidence-based”.
Pilates is evidence based. My experience suggests that acupuncture’s effects are not imaginary but are limited. I bet I’ve spent more money both on ‘evidence-based’ and “we don’t need no stinken evidence based” methodologies than you have. Pilates has been very helpful for me in addressing asymmetries which began in childhood which were causing me problems. It also has definitely helped with lower back pain.
Chronic fatigue, though, is not addressed by any methodology I’ve come across. Ask me how I know.
Also, at this stage of my life and health, I feel confident in saying that while most woo medicine doesn’t do squat, it also rarely harms. There are exceptions of course, but they are exceptional.
Western medicine rarely has no effect. However, the effect may be accompanied by unendurable side effects, some of them long term. I have plenty of personal stories. Very seldom does it come with no baggage, at least for me.
Sometimes I’d rather bask in warm, soothing but ineffective treatments than puke my guts out or get vertigo to the point that it isn’t worth any cure. YMMV.
First, your anectdotal experience is not actual evidence of anything.
Second, nobody in this thread has said that accupuncture cannot result in a beneficial placebo effect.
And what is that proof of other than the fact you have spent money?
I felt confiudent saying that roughly three decades ago. When I reviewed the scientific evidence.
I used to think ‘Well, chiropractors are quacks. But, it’s not like they kill their patients’. In threads like this one, cases of actual permanent damage and death as a result of chiropractors performing ‘adjustments’ were posted
Even if you maintain this kind of thing is ‘rare’ and an ‘exception’, the argument ‘It has no evidence showing it works beyond a placebo effect and is waste of time and money- but at least it won’t make you worse or kill you’ is still a terrible argument.
If only the patient could rely on some kind of government medical agency (like the FDA) to test whether a treatment was effective and what the side effects were before it was released to the public. If only medications (like the pills for ADHD and depression I have been on for at least three and half decades) came with a small pamphlet in the box explaining what the medication was, how it worked, what the known side effects were, and of there were any side effects that meant you should stop taking it and contact your doctor immediately. Oh wait. Every medicattion I have been prescribed has in fact come with a pamphlet with all that information and more.
As I am sure you are aware- the plural of anectdote is not evidence.
Are you saying you would rather waste time and money on treatments never shown to have a beneficial effect greater than placebo- rather than using a scientificallly proven treatment that may have side effects or not work for you?
It certainly does.
You don’t know my health history, but I’ve been sickened by western medicine more times than I can count. It’s close to not “may have side effects” but to “will have side effects which you may or may not be able to tolerate”. This colors my opinions, sorry if it’s ‘anecdotal’. Reading peer reviewed large scale studies published in reputable magazine doesn’t help me, personal me, with my medical issues.
And then there’s all the times western medicine has said “we don’t know what your problem is, it’s probably imaginary, try anti-depressants.” This is humiliating and pathetic, and it happens far more often to women and people of color than to white men. Read the studies.
There’s lots to loathe in western medicine. If you care to examine it dispassionately. If it was so gloriously effective, there wouldn’t be so many desperate people seeking help elsewhere.
I never claimed to. You have still not demonstrated any reason why I would need to. The benefical effects you say you have received from accupuncture are explainable by the placebo effect. Neither I, nor anybody else in this thread has denied that accupuncture can result in a beneficial placebo effect.
You don’t know my medical history either. What medciations I have tried over the years for ADHD an depression? What side effects did they have?
More, how is any of that relevant?
Of course it does. I am glad that you just acknowledged they are your opinions.
Again, the plural of anectdote is not data.
Where did I say it did? I have recommended (and continue to do so) reading up scientifcally proven procedures and medications prescribed by a licensed medical doctor, before starting them.
As opposed to accupuncture and the rest which say ‘The whole thing is based on woo, has never been shown to have effects greater than placebo, but let me charge you anyway’
As opposed to accupuncture and the rest which have never been proven to have an effect greater than placebo?
Huh? Are you saying that rather than addressing systemic prejudice in evidence based medicine, we should all just spend our time and money on accupuncture and other things that have never been proven to have an effect greater than placebo?
I am examining it dispassionately. That is what reviewing the evidence is.
That doesn’t remotely follow.
Prevagen is a suppliment for memory loss and such.
Nugenix Total T is a suppliment for low sex drive, loss of energy etc
Both are big money makers. The television ads for both are extremely carefully worded so as to not make any medical claims. There is no evidence either brand of pill actually does anything.
Some people are unhappy with evidenced based medicine. That is not actual proof of anything. If we look at studies showing exactly why these people are unhappy with evidenced based medicine, it still is not proof that evidence based medicine is deficient, insufficient, or in any way in error in those areas. It is only proof that some people feel and perceive it to be that way.
Then you aren’t listening. Acupuncture aside – and you’re beating a dead horse there, by the way – you apparently feel that people with the kinds of illnesses which western medicine has no useful answers for, are stupid and self-indulgent for trying something else, anything else, that might possibly give them some relief. If they were as intelligent as yourself, they would suffer quietly and wait for western medicine to figure out how to help them before they blow their brains out in despair.
I have anecdotally and up close known someone who couldn’t wait any more. And I know another who is still waiting, with little hope. Neither resorted to non-evidence-supported anything. The man who shot himself was an aeronautical engineer.
I really dislike the euphemism " Western Medicine".
I am listening. What you go on to say in this post is very clearly not what you said before.
Here is what you said before-
This is not the same as what you just said-
First, as others have pointed out- why do you keep using the term “western medicine” rather than evidence based medicine"?
Second, when something costs time and money, and has never been shown to provide any beneficial effect beyond placebo- trying is at the very least ignoring logic. We can argue about whether it is stupid. We do not seem to disagree that these people are trying something not based on science of any kind, and with no evidence to back it up.
First, I never said a single word about suffering quietly. My paternal grandmother died a few decades after Alzheimer’s set in. Alzheimer’s eating your brain is, IMHO something worth complaining about. My father died several decades after Alzheimer’s set in. Besides all the other fun things I have inherited, the odds of my developing Alzheimer’s are high.
The answer is NOT to throw science and evidence out the window on look to a ‘cure’ that is not based on either one.
I do not know what you have personally been through. You don’t seem to know what I have been through either. Things have been very bad indeed many times during my life. Not once did I decided to turn my back on evidence based medicine and embrace woo.
So have i. I have tried to support these people as best I could, while conmtinuing to advise against accupuncture, St John’s Wort, etc.
I say this sincerely, good for them…
You are arguing in favor of accupuncture and other things not supported by any evidence.
While the average human death is a great tragedy, what does his suicide have to do with anything? How is it relevant to this discussion? What if anything does it prove?