Yea, when someone says “Western Medicine” they’re usually implying there’s something better than the science of “Western Medicine” (hint: there’s not) and/or “Western Medicine” is fraudulent or conspiratorial (hint: it isn’t).
Fact is, acupuncture is 100% woo. It will always be woo.
If you read carefully, I do not say that, I say only – based on many treatments – that it has a calming, centering effect which is positive.
As far as my engineer friend goes, I should have explained further that he was a very meticulous, upright, scientifically minded, stoic, engineering type of a guy who was pretty much opposite to the stereotype you appear to be describing, who is a dissatisfied, gullible, uneducated, self-indulgent naif.
I’m trying to help you have some empathy for the kind of people who seek out other, unproven methods because they have run out of options in the ‘evidence-based’ world of medicine. But I’m not doing a good job, and I also sense that you are not interested in understanding people who are different than yourself. Rationality can be a narrow windowless box. Give you the joy of it.
I suggest you check out whatstheharm.net re “exceptions”.
Any serious harm or death is inexcusable when treatments involve quackery.
An “exceptional” case?
Well, thank you so very much for saying that I have no empathy. Could it in fact be the case that I do actually have empathy, and throwing out science and reason to spend time and money on something not proven to have any beneficial effect beyond placebo is still a very bad iea and a waste of resources?
You sense entirely incorrectly, but thanks for the insult.
Possibly, However any claims evidence based medicine makes have actual science and evidence behind them.
Second, do you not know me at all? I routinely post that I am proud to be a Jew, that I keep covenant with the Lord, He keeps covenant with me, and that I feel His presence in my life every day.
If you can find a way to explain that without contradicting that I have trapped myself in some ‘box of rationality’ I would very much like to hear it
Moderating:
Both, time to step back and disengage from this discussion. You’ve both become entirely too heated. Let it go.
Traditional Chinese medicine explains acupuncture as a technique for balancing the flow of energy or life force — known as chi or qi (chee) — believed to flow through pathways (meridians) in your body. By inserting needles into specific points along these meridians, acupuncture practitioners believe that your energy flow will re-balance.
This part is 100% woo. but-
In contrast, many Western practitioners view the acupuncture points as places to stimulate nerves, muscles and connective tissue. Some believe that this stimulation boosts your body’s natural painkillers.
This part is not woo. You know that stuff you run on sore muscles , that kinda burns? It overloads the pain sensors. That is one reason given why acupuncture can work. Check out the cite below for others. But note “some believe”.
You want double-blind?
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/abs/10.7326/0003-4819-136-5-200203050-00010
Numerous randomized, controlled trials and more than 25 systematic reviews and meta-analyses have evaluated the clinical efficacy of acupuncture. Evidence from these trials indicates that acupuncture is effective for emesis developing after surgery or chemotherapy in adults and for nausea associated with pregnancy. Good evidence exists that acupuncture is also effective for relieving dental pain. For such conditions as chronic pain, back pain, and headache, the data are equivocal or contradictory
The abstract goes on, this is as much as I think is “fair use” I suggest reading the whole abstract.
And of course- there is the placebo effect.
Good point.
So, I would rate it a “maybe”. I tried it once for arthritis pain- it seemed to have some temporary relief.
More on the “root cause” fallacy inherent in much of health quackery:
Sounds like woo restated, without the “chi”.
A number of studies have shown that acupuncture is just as “effective” when random points for needle insertion are used, or when dummy needles are used that don’t pierce the skin.
I don’t see anything in that excerpt re double-blinding.
Kaptchuk BTW has undergone peculiar changes in how he’s embraced quackery and placebo effect.
Analysis of acupuncture with relevant references:
An issue is that western medicine is fairly recent. It didn’t really exist until the mid 19th century, and I think the vast majority of therapies and knowledge we have now are from the post WW2 era. Western medicine is great, its just that we are still learning new things everyday.
There is still an endless amount about human biology we have left to learn, and sadly its also been my experience that some practitioners will ascribe anything they don’t understand to being psychosomatic or due to obesity. Its a way for the practitioner to protect their ego and pretend they know things they really do not, or a way to blow off patients when they are already overworked and overstressed. I really think incorporating AI into healthcare, which will hopefully happen on a large scale in the 2030s, will really help improve patient outcomes. There are 2 million biomedical scientific papers written every year, nobody can keep track of all that.
Its going to take a while to really get a grasp on how human biology works. We’re still in the early stages in a lot of ways.
Saying that a HBOT chamber exploded means that the entire field of HBOT is quackery is pretty absurd. Thats like claiming that because someone once died during surgery that all surgery is quackery.
HBOT isn’t an invalid medical procedure because a chamber blew up once.
Given what (little) I know about the nervous system, the idea that stimulating the nerves at certain points or in certain ways could affect our perception of pain does not seem unreasonable.
If the evidence doesn’t support the theory, then it’s a theory that turns out not to be true; but that’s not what I’d consider “woo.”
Indeed. Fortunately, @Jackmannii isn’t saying that. Jackmannii is responding to the claim that unproven treatments may be ineffective and expensive, but other than funneling a lot of money to people who don’t bother to prove that their treatments are valuable, they’re harmless. As an example of an unproven treatment that is not harmless, @Jackmannii presented HBOT.
Years back, I read a story in The Philadelphia Inquirer (the local newspaper of note) on the use of HBOT to help people with non healing wounds. The use of HBOT for this purpose was well supported by evidence.
What condition was the boy being treated for? What evidence is there that HBOT helps that condition?
There are a few legit uses for HBOT, such as treating the bends, carbon monoxide poisoning and diabetic foot ulcers.
Not the laundry list of conditions claimed by these people.
In the Pit I cited another such facility, operated by chiropractors, which purports to treat vaccine injury. They even sell HBOT chambers for home use. Must be safe, huh?
Another case of a child killed in an HBOT accident. Note the dubious medical indication.
And those points just happen to coincide with the ones acupuncturists claim improve “chi” flow? Without valid evidence that sticking needles there is any better than inserting needles in random locations, or not actually inserting needles at all (i e. “sham” acupuncture)?
Yeah suurre.
Yes, but it seems the dummy needles dont work as well.
Numerous randomized, controlled trials and more than 25 systematic reviews and meta-analyses have evaluated the clinical efficacy of acupuncture.
Okay, here is another study-
Or it works by the placebo method, which is tried and true. Your cite a had no independent double blind studies.
Yes, the idea that the needles have to be inserted for the “qi” points has been disproven time and again. No one is arguing that.
It seems to be either that or simply placebo.
Mind you, like i said- I am not a proponent of it. it seems to work for some people, but how and why?
So, I am not arguing in favor of acupuncture.
Not necessarily. Maybe just the needle anywhere near the painful part overload the pain mechanism, like tiger balm works.
But again- whatever. You seem sure it has no value and that is fine. I am not arguing otherwise.
If your back doesn’t start hurting until you have walked about 5 min that is a very strong indicator of weak back muscles. My company outlawed the back braces because they were causing back muscles to atrophy. I would just do some recommended exercises and stick with the walking. It should only take a couple of weeks to start seeing improvements if it is weak muscles.
You are making a huge assumption that other options even exist for the sort of lower back pain I experience (without so much as checking my medical history). As I indicated in my post I have seen a general practicioner and a specialist for my lower back and the relief was only temporary. I was prescribed a laundry list of muscle relaxers and pain killers. I have no desire to be dependant on either and who can blame me? The medical establishment/Big Pharma has done much to hurt its credibility with the over prescription of these sort of drugs. How many millions people like myself in this country have become dependant on narcotics and died as a result?
Accupuncture may only provide temporary relief for my back pain but at least I won’t end up a dead junkie in an alley with some bunk drugs in my system.
Forgive me for providing an answer based on both evidence based medicine medicine and the information provided.
Okay, so you have seen the appropriate doctors and specialists.
You have no desire to try pain killers. I quite agree. As I said in my classic thread Ow! My Spine!, I was strongly against prescription pain killers. My orthopedist was also strongly against them.
It is not entirely clear what you have against muscle relaxers.
I am well aware of this.
How is that proof of anything other that “the medical establishment/Big Pharma” over prescribed these drugs?
How does it prove that evidence based medicine and prescription medicines do not work?
That is not a figure I have handy. I would argue it doesn’t matter anyway. As I have already said, I made it very clear to the orthopedic specialist that I did not want prescription pain medicines. He was fine with that. He had x-rays taken. He performed a variety of muscle strength and range of motion tests. He prescribed a course of prescription strength naproxen sodium (technically it is a pain killer. The only difference between the pills he prescribed and the naproxen you can buy without a prescription was the dosage) and a course of (I may get the name wrong) methylprednisolone.
The result of these things was immediate and marked decrease in pain, as well as immediate and marked improvement in range of motion.
If somebody decides they do not want to use prescription pain killers, there is still a great deal evidence based medicine can generally do to help.
If somebody decides that they do not want to use prescription pain killers, accupuncture and the rest still do not have evidence showing they offer beneficial effects greater than placebo.
If you have any evidence that accupuncture provides any beneficial effect greater than placebo, please present it.
I found significant and lasting relief for my back pain through an orthopedic specialist, and a licensed physical therapist. “Bunk drugs” were never even offered.
Oxycodone and Oxycontin were over sold by the manufacturer in order to get doctors to prescribe them. They were indeed over prescribed. Quite a few terrible things happened as a result.
However, at least Oxycodone and Oxycontin had evidence proving that they provided pain relief significantly greater than placebo.
I admit, I have never heard of a person becoming addicted to accupuncture. I have also not read any evidence that accupuncture has any beneficial effect greater than placebo.
You seem to be under the impression that it is my job or mission (??) to prove to you the effectiveness of accupuncture. It is not, nor do I care to do so. OP asked us if anyone has experience with accupuncture. I answered that question as it related to my personal experience. OP did not us to prove to him that accupunture works using double blind test, peer reviewed journals, or any other of that nonsense. I understood the assignment, did you?
Sorry, I was under the impression that this was the Straight Dope Message Board- Fighting Ignorance Since 1973.
I would argue that since we are on the SDMB, and you certainly seem to be saying that accupuncture is not actually a waste of time and money, it is in fact your job to back that claim up with facts.
I understand the purpose and nature of the SDMb. Do you?
You understood incorrectly. What I said was accupuncture worked for me in so far as I experienced temporary relief. Whether it will work for you or anyone else I do not know. I hope you’re not really doctor with that sort of uncanny ability to superimpose words on the screen that do not actually exist.