The math doesn’t lie. Regardless of what people are concerned about or scared by.
In realityland, that’s an excluded middle. Lots of adopted kids can manage to call their adopted parents “mother” without exploding in hatred.
There may be some exceptions, of course - but you’ve made no kind of argument to suggest that the middle you’re excluding isn’t the norm.
Is it noble and honorable, or is it better for the baby to be killed before being taken in by strangers who don’t have a genetic and/or cultural bond with it? You’ve asserted both, and they kinda contradict.
These are irrelevant to the majority of adoptions in this country, and if you don’t know that, you aren’t arguing from a position of knowledge, but of ignorance and propaganda.
There’s obviously no debating you with this. Adoptive parents are not wholesale “forcing” their adoptive children to call them “Mom” and “Dad,” and beating them if they don’t, the mentally ill people that you’ve seen aside.
And I would like to remind you that as a so-called psychic and therefore a fraudulent predator on people who are emotional vulnerable and irrational to begin with, your data set, by definition, is flawed and biased. You may have had experience with some people who mistreated their adoptive children, or adoptive children who had issues with their situation, but by definition, they are coming to you because they are broken in some way, and therefore not the norm.
I’m going to repeat that. YOUR EXPERIENCES ARE NOT THE NORM. In fact, as people here have attempted to communicate, they are so far outside of the norm as be to completely and utterly alien and borderline lunatic.
Again, I call lack of good faith. You did not come to debate, you came to insult and cast aspersions based upon some random and perverted notion you have about genetic obligations, purity of bloodlines, and other nonsense. If you HAD come here to debate, you would have, oh, I don’t know, PAID ATTENTION to the experiences that others are communicating that do not match your own.
I could never give a child to strangers. Another mother might be okay with it, but that’s a decision each mother should have the freedom to make herself. It should not be forced on her.
The only thing this debate has made evident is that some people really have issues with dealing with their own infertility. If the birth mother is so not important why are all the adopters so fanatical about having the title mother applied to them? The reactions I have seen on this board has moved my opinion from adoption is probably okay for some if there is absolutely no family to take a child to I know think it would be better for children to be raised in orphanages. Congrads, you’ve made a firm anti-adopter out of me.
Finally, the truth of the matter. So, it’s that YOU, personally, find adoption abhorrent, and could never give your child up for adoption (fair opinion), and therefore…all adoptive children are mentally raped by their adoptive parents? All adoptive parents are evil children-seeking kidnappers? All biological mothers who give up their children for adoption have been forced to do so, regardless of circumstances? (And before you do it - yes, I am aware that there are instances in which mothers HAVE been coerced, but that does not mean it happens in ALL cases).
Again, your original question was supposedly about why adoptive children call their adoptive parents “Mom” and “Dad,” and throughout this entire “debate” you’ve been told why, and you’ve refused to believe what you’ve been told. You’ve turned this thread into a discussion of the evils of adoption, the abuse of adoptive children, genetic purity and its obligations, and a whole host of other things that are only tangentially related to your supposed original question.
It’s clear to me that you posted to have a forum for your personal opinions regarding adoption, and that’s fine, but let’s just be honest about your intentions.
Oh, please. You ALREADY WERE a firm anti-adopter before you got here. You just attempted to hide it behind a disingenuous discussion of what you claimed was your original question. Your statement “why are all the adopters so fanatical…” has already been answered and debunked, and you refuse to see it. So, enough already with the fake innocence.
Because raising a child is not the same as giving birth. I would consider a biological parent justified in disowning a child who would not acknowledge that they were the biological parents. What vagina you came out of it is simply one of those undisputed facts of nature that can’t be changed and shouldn’t be lied about. As to what you owe your mother for that, depends on the nature of your relationship. My mother risked her life for me to be born. It wasn’t a high risk pregnancy, but childbirth even in the modern world is a greater risk of death than abortion. And I’ve been in enough delivery rooms to know childbirth is painful. For that I owe her family respect and courtesy. And as I have said before she is the only person I would sacrifice a kidney for if she needed it and that is because I used her uterus for an incubator for nine months. I figure I owe it to her. Do I owe her my life or a life of never ending servitude? No, her decision to have me was her free choice. In cases of abusive biological parents, I think the abuse nullifies most if not all obligations, but those are the kind of things people have to figure out for themselves according to their own consciences.
Giving birth is physically risky, but most any woman can do it. Raising a well-adjusted child takes years of sustained effort and caring, and plenty of parents fuck that up regularly. I’d rather birth a kid than raise one.
“I could never give a child to strangers. Another mother might be okay with it, but that’s a decision each mother should have the freedom to make herself. It should not be forced on her.”
It sounds like theres some confusion going on.
Adoption in Oz is where the parent is voluntarily relinquishing the child. Permanent care is where the child is taken away involuntarily because the parent(s) are determined to be unable to effectively care for the child and no safe relatives are available.
Overseas adoption under the Hague convention similarly is supposed to happen only when there is no parents, family or local people available to adopt.
It sounds to be me like your major beef is with permanent care if the voluntary aspect is your major concern.
Adopters is what people who adopt children are. They are certainly not the people who gave birth to those children are they? I like the term fanatical to describe any behavior where people act defensive or hostile when asked a question about why they do something that defies logic in my eyes.
From age 2 to 18 I was my youngest brother’s legal guardian, so yeah I have raised a child. Also I have been the primary caregiver for other children in my family for prolonged periods of time. As to whether or not having a child call you “Daddy” is abusive, answer this, why do you want them to call you “Daddy”? Is it to flatter your own ego and make up for the fact that you cannot father children? If the answer is yes, then yeah, it’s abusive.
So, because you have encountered one emotionally distraught person who has made some odd decisions, you decided to “ask a question” that involves you making snide and insulting (and false) accusations against a very large group of people that has led to a lengthy thread in which you resolutely refuse to even attempt to understand the errors that you repeatedly post or attempt to understand any perspective but that of your own apparently insular social group?
Adoption does not require “lying” about anything and your persistent remarks in that vein means that you are accusing anyone who uses language in any manner but your own idiosyncretic way of “lying,” and then you want to act all astounded that people get (in your words) “hysterical” just because you want to accuse them of evil when they are simply using the language the way it has always been spoken in their presence and doing good in their lives.
Sorry. I’m not buying it.
= = =
For the sake of discussion, I will consider that you may be a member of some group that has been the victim of baby kidnapping. Certainly American Indians, the Rom, Australian Aborigines and other groups have, indeed, been subject to having their children taken from them by governmental or religious institutions–supposedly for their own good–and then adopted out to others in the larger society. Since such actions continued to occur in the U.S. and Australia well into the late 20th century and may still be occurring in Europe, today, I can see a member of any such group looking askance at the practice of adoption.
However, what you fail, (and apparently refuse), to see is that that horrid practice arose from a much more benign effort to unite adults and children who each wanted or needed to have a parent-child relationship–a practice that has gone on among humans for millennia. If my conjecture is correct, you are permitting the bad experience of a specific situation to shape your views of different situations.
Now, generally, that would be unfortunate, but it would be something that we could overcome with an exchange of information and a willingness to attempt to see outside our own societies and language. Unfortunately, you are simply refusing to even try to see our perspective while you are giving out so little information that we cannot see your perspective.
The longer this thread goes on–and the longer you insist on posting false accusations of evil against people who are doing no wrong–the more likely that this thread is going to degenerate into a flame war.
If I do not see some indication that you are willing to attempt to understand the points that have been presented to you or to share enough information that we can understand your perspective, then I am going to shut this thread down as a wastew of all our time.
LOL … I did father children. Two in fact. Who I am in the process of raising right now.
But I didn’t risk my life by carrying them inside my BODY as their mother did. So what right do I have to have them call me “Daddy”. After all, all I’ve done is loved them and cared for them. If that’s not good enough for an adoptive parent, why is it good enough for me?
The overt sexism of your beliefs are only one of the things I find odious about them.