Adoption: Why say Mom and Dad?

[Jack_Batty]

@ZPG_Zealot

You do realize 2nd cousins can marry?

First cousins too … apparently.

[Malthus]

@Marley23

Who cares what you think, cannibal?

I certainly do; after all, I want to avoid being on the menu.

[RaftPeople]

@ZPG_Zealot

Genetic ties are part of you. You have some of the same DNA as your relatives. Essentially part of them is part of you…

What you said is correct, but so is this:
“You have some of the same DNA as every other human on this planet”

[Normal_Phase]

I’m unhappily familiar with a completely FANATIC anti-adoption advocate on another forum, and ZPG Zealot is using all the same arguments and all the same buzzwords since the first post. I don’t think this post was so much a question as an excuse for debate, or possibly advocacy.

[Normal_Phase]

@Freudian_Slit

This whole religious tradition argument reminds me of ZPG Zealot’s argument for why infanticide is sometimes okay. Like, what if you’re in a war torn situation and a crying baby could give you away…or if you’re in a jail cell with a baby whose crying could drive you insane?

Wait, wait, what? Infanticide?

ZPG Zealot, you don’t happen to use Livejournal, do you?

There can’t possibly be two such people in the world …

[Kearsen]

@ZPG_Zealot

This is a question I have always had about people that adopt children who are not in anyway related to them, but whenever I try to ask it, I get hysterics. Why is it necessary to maintain the fiction that the adopters gave birth to the children by raising them to call their adopters mother and father (or other parental names)? It never made sense to me, if adoption is such a good and noble thing, that the relationship between the child and caregiver had to be hidden. It also seemed rather insulting to people who were guardians or godparents and raising children.

I can speak only for myself as I was adopted. I was adopted at birth or close enough (5 days old). My “parents” had already filled out the paperwork.

To me, they were my only parents. I never really had a desire to look up my biological ones even though logically they are probably in pretty close proximity. The adoption wasn’t hidden from me. Well, in a sense maybe. When I was about 10 yrs of age my parents told me I was adopted. It didn’t bother me then and it doesn’t bother me now.

[jayjay]

@Normal_Phase

There can’t possibly be two such people in the world …

Optimist.

[Marley23]

@Jack_Batty

First cousins too … apparently.

Again, personal insults and digs don’t belong in this forum, regardless of how inflammatory the topic may be.

[elbows]

So, on review;

You’d rather kill your own child than see it raised in poverty, (where it’s addition to the family would decrease the standard of living.)

You’d rather kill your own child than see it go to adoption, no matter how loving the home, or kindly motivated the parents.

You’d sooner see children tossed into Eastern European Orphanages than into loving homes where they might be tempted to call someone ‘mother’ without having exited their vagina.

You’d only give an organ, to save a life, to your Mom, the vagina you exited. To hell with Dad, siblings, cousins, in laws, lovers, strangers.

You believe the world would be better served if we properly identified every orphan, bastard, epileptic, etc. Y’know, not that we want them stigmatized.

You are a seer/wise woman giving others direction.

Why, exactly, did you return from Eastern Europe?

It seems like a perfect place for you, teaming with the backward, ignorant, superstitious and uneducated. All that you value seems to be held in high regard there, why would you leave?

[MovieMogul]

@Marley23

Again, personal insults and digs don’t belong in this forum, regardless of how inflammatory the topic may be.

Jeez, given the OP’s extreme fondness of familial connections, I assumed she’d take it as a compliment…

[Freudian_Slit]

@Normal_Phase

Wait, wait, what? Infanticide?

ZPG Zealot, you don’t happen to use Livejournal, do you?

There can’t possibly be two such people in the world …

There was a whole thread about when infanticide is appropriate. Like if there’s no safe way to abort and you’ve already given birth, you should be allowed to kill the baby. Or what if you’re on a bus and you’re hiding from the Viet Cong and the chicken is squawking and dear god it’s a baby. Or being in a cell with a baby for some reason and the screaming drives you mad.
See here.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@ZPG_Zealot

Depends on what they did. Seriously, aren’t most people capable of killing to defend themselves and others? Some extremes of human behavior can motivate violence. Without going into too much really disgusting detail, the individual in question did horrible things and is currently incarcerated for it. But there were times when he wasn’t. Times when he was close enough to me that one good bullet to the head would have saved court time and the cost of incarceration. The point being, I didn’t do it because he was family. I stayed out of the mess and let the authorities arrest him.

EDIT: Never mind, that’s too far for GD.

[kaylasdad99]

@kaylasdad99

So should we conclude that if you ever feel that sort of hatred for someone who’s not related to you by blood, they would not be as safe?

@ZPG_Zealot

Depends on what they did.

I think my question established within its wording that it was about you feeling a hatred that burns with the fury of a thousand nuclear explosions. One does not generally associate such depths of emotion with a situation that calls for self-defense at the deadly force level. I’m not willing to entertain the notion that this half-sibling had you in such a situation, and you stayed your hand from defending yourself.

Stipulating that only behavior that merits long-term incarceration can cause you to feel it, I’m asking you: if you hated a non-relative to the degree that you hated this relative, would you take it upon yourself to apply a bullet to the person’s head rather than allow the authorities to arrest him?

[ToeJam]

@tomndebb

There has been a notable lack of “hysterics” in this thread, despite the offensive attitude dispayed in the OP and in subsequent posts.

Rather, there has been a willful effort by ZPG Zealot to portray the rest of the world as “wrong” while insisting that we all adopt her own ideolect* for our conversations. Her explanations do not even appear to have any basis beyond her personal emotional reactions to certain words.

It is not a matter of what “others would wish to describe their own personal relationship with their children.” It is a matter of her both insisting that we all change language as it exists and declaring that we are all “wrong” to employ it as it exists while steadfastly refusing to provide any reason to do so.

Your attempt to portray the situation as merely insecure people defending their emotional baggage is both inaccurate and unhelpful.

Please refer to my usage of hysterical in my own statements in “quotes”, sorry I left that out. I was merely trying to use her own words as she’s described them. I think she simply stepped into a hole bigger than that which she was expecting, as it seemed her question was more about a particular situation rather than a philosophical debate on the merits of calling people mother and father.
Since she’s resolved that situation, and is continue to participate, my advice/involvement is pretty much done. I’m just going to read this thread along now as I have no sides this debate (well, I do, but I don’t think we need to add to the pile on).
And the only insecure person I was referring to was from her presentation of her situation ie: the controlling mother. I tried to avoid passing judgment on any Doper here, and if that’s what came across- well I’m sorry as that was not my intent. I was merely discussing the OP’s thoughts and her scenario.

[ToeJam]

@Frylock

The poster you’re responding to wasn’t talking about hysterics in the thread, rather, s/he was referring to the “hysterical” reactions the OP says s/he gets IRL when she discusses this issue with people. The poster you’re responding to is explaining to the OP that s/he gets these “hysterical reactions” because she’s using language that is perfectly acceptable in her own ideolect, yet perfectly offensive in standard usage. That’s pretty close to what you’re saying too, idn’it?

:smack: I guess I should have continued reading as he sums it up very well.
Thank you, Frylock. You expressed my thoughts much better than I could.

[Sailboat]

Having read the first page and skipped to the end, I’d venture to guess the reason you (the OP) get weird reactions is because you (the OP) have some kind of issue with this…something emotional, or a mental block. It’s really a simple thing, and use of terms like “biological history was/was not altered” implies such an intense focus on a minor semantic detail that i can see why communicating with people who, um, do not have this intense focus leads to miscommunication and hysteria.

[ZPG_Zealot]

@kaylasdad99

I think my question established within its wording that it was about you feeling a hatred that burns with the fury of a thousand nuclear explosions. One does not generally associate such depths of emotion with a situation that calls for self-defense at the deadly force level. I’m not willing to entertain the notion that this half-sibling had you in such a situation, and you stayed your hand from defending yourself.

Stipulating that only behavior that merits long-term incarceration can cause you to feel it, I’m asking you: if you hated a non-relative to the degree that you hated this relative, would you take it upon yourself to apply a bullet to the person’s head rather than allow the authorities to arrest him?

Everytime I have felt my life threatened my hatred for the threatener has been of the intensity I commonly describe as the the fury of a thousand nuclear explosions. I think it’s part of how adrenaline reacts in the body. Yes, if a non-relative had done what that particular relative had done (a list of war crimes for which his guilt was undisputed) and I knew I would probably get away with the death staying uncovered, yeah, I think I would apply a bullet to the person’s head.

[Guinastasia]

@ZPG_Zealot

Depends on what they did. Seriously, aren’t most people capable of killing to defend themselves and others? Some extremes of human behavior can motivate violence. Without going into too much really disgusting detail, the individual in question did horrible things and is currently incarcerated for it. But there were times when he wasn’t. Times when he was close enough to me that one good bullet to the head would have saved court time and the cost of incarceration. The point being, I didn’t do it because he was family. I stayed out of the mess and let the authorities arrest him.

So if you have a relative who is a murderer, a rapist, a child molestor, you say nothing, simply because he or she is blood? You know this person is hurting others, but you do nothing, because of DNA? That’s…that’s evil.

(I also find it amusing when the OP talks about the importance of blood ties, she also advocates infanticide. Of her own infant. :dubious:)

[Leaper]

@Guinastasia

So if you have a relative who is a murderer, a rapist, a child molestor, you say nothing, simply because he or she is blood? You know this person is hurting others, but you do nothing, because of DNA? That’s…that’s evil.

To be utterly fair, many many MANY people do this every single day, and have since the dawn of history, and I’m sure only a tiny minority shares the OP’s views. Seriously, look at what you just said. I hope you’re not implying that it’s unusual for a criminal’s family to harbor him/her, even with full knowledge of his/her guilt, or for an abuser’s family to let abuse go unreported or unhindered.

OTOH, I’m sure an equally few number of them put it the way the OP does. Or implies (since she didn’t outright say it) that it’s a “right” thing to do.

[tomndebb]

TWEEEEET!

Killing people, related or not, is not a topic of this thread.

Everyone drop it.
[ /Moderating ]