Mostly from my peers. I have distinct memories of hanging out with groups of boys/young men (high school and college) and discussing these issues in detail. I remember being with groups cat-calling/whistling at young women, and I remember my peers making comments directly to classmates that I realize now were definitely sexual harassment. I don’t remember anyone ever bragging about groping ala Trump, but I do remember my peers laughing at another classmate who “bravely” pretended to stumble and put his hand on a girl’s chest.
I never groped anyone, but I didn’t think groping was a particularly big deal (as a boy and young man – I started to grow up and out of this in my early and mid 20s). I did cat-call (I think it was whistling, IIRC) and make suggestive comments (harassment) on a few occasions – I remember distinctly (with great shame) taking part in that as a teenager.
I suspect part of me knew at least some of this was wrong, based on a solid moral foundation from my parents. And this solidified and took hold permanently when I started to learn about feminism, after I’d gotten past the (relatively short) phase of knee-jerk rebellion/contradiction of my parents.
Andy;
I really do have a problem accepting your description of the environment you grew up in. I know you are not a liar, but are you sure you really have this right. I don’t think it happens or happened the way you describe.
Let’s try an experiment. Find the roughest most misogynistic group of guys you can. I’m talking Jersey Guidos, or southern shitkickers. Walk into their bar. Now go ahead and grab one of the girls they are hanging around with by the ass or breast.
You were taught this was not a big deal, right? There are at the same stage of development as you were then.
I’m sure nothing bad will happen to you if what you say is true.
Disclaimer;
The previous post was facetious. I am not actually suggesting you grope anybody.
I’d get assaulted, because I’d have just disrespected a bunch of strangers by putting my hands on someone else’s “property”. That’s not exactly an enlightened attitude. Similarly, in my high school, it would have been unacceptable to cat-call, harass, or grope someone’s girlfriend, because that’s disrespectful – but the disrespect (as my peer group saw it) was to the boy much more than to the girl.
Again, when I was a teenager, groping and cat-calling were big deals and you just didn’t do them. Period.
I remember one time when I was about 15 a kid at my school yelled something crude out at another kid’s girlfriend. The other kid beat the shit out of him, and the general consensus in the school yard was that the beating was well deserved.
Edit: This had nothing to do with girlfriends being “property” and everything to do with the notion that men who verbally or physically abused women were scum.
And this is all related to rape, both directly and indirectly, which is why it’s correctly described as rape culture. My peer group really thought that date-rape wasn’t really rape – it was just taking liberties with a girl… if she didn’t want it, she wouldn’t have agreed to go back to our dorm room, or to ride with us up to the overlook make-out spot. There’s a clear line from “sexual harassment, cat-calling, and groping aren’t really a big deal” to “date-rape isn’t rape”, and so many other things. What I experienced as a young man was definitely rape culture. It didn’t make rape less likely, it made it much easier to get away with.
This doesn’t conflict with my experiences – someone’s girlfriend was off limits… because that was their property.
…yet just because **you **didn’t do them, doesn’t mean it isn’t done. Congratulations on being able to keep your hands to yourself. But what you do isn’t the issue here.
Maybe I just grew up in a unique culture (suburban New Orleans in the 90s, for my teenage years). Whether it was just this time and place (which I highly doubt), or whether it was more widespread, for me it was feminism that got me out of this moral dark age.
…so I guess what iiandyiii did isn’t an issue either.
My teenage peer group would have agreed with this sentiment, but they wouldn’t have considered cat-calling, whistling, sexual harassment (which we wouldn’t have called that) or even some groping (probably pinching or over-the-clothes that didn’t leave bruising would have been considered nothing significant) as verbal or physical abuse. We thought we were good guys who treated women well… these things were just no big deal, and not “abuse”, in our minds. It was awful; it enabled mistreatment of women; and it was real. That we sincerely believed it and believed that we were good guys who treated girls well doesn’t justify it at all.
Property huh. Ok well if that is true, than walk up to one of these guys, point to one of the girls and offer a suitable amount of money for permission to the grab the breast of their property.
If the girl is in fact property this should be a simple negotiation. I am sure nothing bad will happen. It would be the same as if you offered them $5 to borrow their phone.
The simple fact is that the breast in question is property. It belongs to the girl. They are going to beat the shit out of you for disrespecting her, because they like her and identify with her, or want to impress her, or because she is one them, or just on general principles. They are not going to beat you up because they think they own her.
This really is a fantasy world you are living in where you think people walk around groping and catcalling and defending their property.
In my experience, when somebody gropes or catcalls what that actually is is:
- An incredibly inexperienced or naive or immature individual who thinks this is a good idea and will impress his friends or the girl in question.
The response is usually impressive and biblical in proportion, and the person and everyone around them learns that this is not acceptable and carries consequences.
-
Someone who is intentionally trying to cause a problem.
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A predator or bully who looked to scare women and make them uncomfortable.
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A creepy old guy like Joe Biden or George Bush Sr… I confess I don’t understand why some of these old dudes turn into grabby creepers. My working theory (happy for a better one) is that it is the less innocent version of the same thing that makes old lady’s grab your cheek. They feel this need to touch youth or something. I don’t get it, but it doesn’t;t seem like a power rapey thing. But that’s just my current working guess.
…what iiandyiii was wrong. And iiandyiii admits that. Of course its an issue. Which is why it was bought up in this very thread.
Which all has nothing at all do do with **your **experience, which is what I addressed in my post.
Wow! I went to Tulane. 85-89. My experience was diametrically opposite of yours. If anything the southern adolescents were waaaaay more insistent on proper behavior towards ladies than the Jersey crowd.
In fact, I would categorize their southern gallantry as hyper over the top intolerance of disrespect towards females
…would you mind sharing with us what your experience with groping or catcalls is?
Have you been groped? Or catcalled?
Have you ever groped someone or catcalled someone?
Have you observed men groping or catcalling women? How often have you seen this?
How much of your experience was garnered from talking to women about their experiences being groped or catcalled?
Phil Robertson says that the black people he grew up with in the mid-20th century Louisiana were happy and that he never witnessed any mistreatment of black people.
Suffice to say that I’m extremely skeptical of the accuracy of his account.
Let me give you another way of looking at it:
When I was lucky enough to have a girlfriend in High school and we went out, if somebody would have groped or catcalled my date I would have defended her, not because she was my property. She was not. I would have done it because I was taught that it was my duty to defend her, that by taking her out I had agreed to an I spoke. Covenant that her safety and well-being was more important than my own.
In fact, I would secretly fantasize about such opportunities so that I could prove my devotion and worth and my gallantry would raise her estimation of me. (I also thought that knowing lots of really cool card and coin tricks was similarly going to impress women, so admittedly I had some weird misconceptions as a young teen.)
That was what culture taught me during my indoctrination into what you term “rape culture”
A valiant attempt to change the subject.
Seriously, are you really suggesting that the culture in New Orleans of the 80s and the 90s was that it was ok or no big deal to grope or catcall women?
I knew exactly 0 southern guys that thought this.
…so this is the sum-total of your experience with groping and catcalling? Having a girlfriend in High School that was never groped or catcalled in your presence?