Just a note on the elbow thing: having just recovered from a broken elbow from falling on ice, I have to say that many people observing me might have thought I was faking it too. The doctor told me to take my arm out of the sling regularly and do light stuff in order that the elbow not seize. Also, my movement wasn’t terribly restricted - it just hurt like shit to move it. I wasn’t allowed to drive (except I could, and did, for the first two days, and then again after a couple of weeks). Because of the level of pain, I didn’t want to do anything that might endanger me banging it, so I wouldn’t have wanted to wander around a mall or the like. The rest of the lazy shit, sure, but a broken elbow isn’t cut-and-dried.
As a supervisor of over 25 employees, I would have to agree that a letter is a very bad idea. It looks like you are formally stating that your boss is an idiot who didn’t see these things himself. If something is handled because of this “petition” everyone who signed it will be looked upon as a trouble maker. Not a good idea if you want to move up in this company.
Now for the reality. In all likelihood your boss doesn’t have a clue that this is going on and needs to be made aware. Informally is the best way to go about it initially. “I really would love to get some extra hours. I notice Kate is getting up to 40, how can we split that around so all of us can share in the extra hours and income? Any thoughts?”
Someone sitting in my office and closing the door to complain about another person never gets the reaction that person had hoped for. First of all, I immediately call the other person in because I am not listening to something about someone else if they aren’t able to defend themselves. You’d be amazed and how often the story changes when a person is actually being confronted.
I wish you luck. This is an extremely annoying situation and must be dealt with very carefully to insure you keep a good reputation whiles getting rid of the slacker.
Well, yeah. A policy like this probably does “change the stories” since it’s intimidating and stifles dissent. And it does nothing to advance truthseeking, since many people would back down even if their complaints are 100% valid.
Wow, really? If I need to tell you something in confidence about another employee, you immediately call them in? Do you find out what kind of information it is first?
Absolutely in the interest of fairness. Usually I do find out what it is first because that is how I know the other person has a right to be present. I have no respect for managers who allow people to complain about their coworkers without the coworker being available to explain their side of the story. It is wrong. How would you feel if John Smith was in your bosses office complaining about you? Not only would you be horrified but you would be distrustful of your supervisor for listening to one side of a story without giving you the opportunity to explain your side. In addition, a policy such as this prevents all my time being taken up with he said/she said. If someone has an issue, they work it out with their coworker, if they cannot, they work it out with their coworker in front of me and allow me to make a decision as to the best way to handle the issue since they could not.
I owe every person that works with me the respect and dignity to know that they are not being talked about behind their backs. My average employee has been here over six years. Of course we still have the gossip that goes on everywhere but without the supervisors catering to it, it dies out a lot faster with less repercussions.
Well, their complaints may well be 100% valid or they may be total BS. The point being, a supervisor who acts on the word of someone who is unwilling to present their issues in front of those they wish to accuse, should not be in that position. The “truth” isn’t what one unhappy person thinks it is but something that can be backed up and collaborated.
If the OP issues are all fact, they are easy to bring to the supervisors attention in a meeting with Kate present. I got the impression he was not comfortable with that which is why I discouraged the idea of a signed letter from the rest of the staff. However, if Kate indeed is causing these problems, explaining the issues and the bad feelings among her fellow employees is the way to go. As long as she is present.
I will say on the occasion that there has been employees that I have hired that were totally wrong for the position, when they were talked to by their fellow employees, they managed to put their own foot in their mouths by trying to justify unacceptable behavior.
The problem the OP has isn’t one that he can “work out” with his coworker. You’re putting all of the responsibility on the employee who complains.
A supervisor should investigate the situation quietly, not accuse and definitely not create a situation where any complaint becomes some sort of death match between two employees.
Um, what I can’t quite understand is why anything needs to be “worked out” with Kate. I mean, it doesn’t sound like she’s harasssing him, or keeping him from doing his job, he just thinks she’s a lazy bitch and doesn’t like her. It seems, from the employees perspective, the focus of the conversation should be on the fact that (a) he’s not getting paid for overtime (b) he’s getting less hours than another employee with less seniority. I would think that this should be the first thing that the employer should bring to their boss. The fact that this girl is lazy, sits in the office, gets complaints from the customers, etc, well, I can see why the supervisor should be made aware of, either to act on or investigate. But I don’t think Kate needs to convince OP that she’s not a “lazy bitch”, she needs to convince her boss.
I’d like to add, my last post was more a general response to thread, not to disagree w/ Foxy40 in particular.
Anyhow, my point is that people should have to explain themselves to their bosses, not their co-workers.
I guess we have to disagree on this issue. I hope you are never in the position of someone you work with having issues with you and having your supervisor investigating you “quietly” while your accuser knows it and probably spreads the word throughout the company. The point of my policy is to discourage the “death match” that occurs when things aren’t all put out on the table where it belongs. I am very loyal to each and every one of my employees and they all deserve to be treated with the respect that they are due for working hard for me every day. That respect includes listening to dissatifaction with one another and attempting to work it out if possible rather than “investigating” every person who someone has a problem with. I have found in my 11 years in this position that a good portion of co worker conflicts can be solved with a two hour lunch and a gift card to Olive Garden so they can talk it out.
I suppose what has worked for me and my crew may not work for all personality types. However, if this policy would not work for a prospective employee, they wouldn’t fit in with my company anyway.
With regard to the SQL thing, do it, and the minute it’s done and works, put it on your CV and apply for that sort of job. Your degree will speak volumes, and you can use your experience as an excuse: “I did this bit of programming and found I really enjoyed it, so I’ve decided to change my career.”
I’m sure I have been in that situation, less the spreading word throughout the company, and I’m not at all bothered by it. I want my supervisors to have some discretion and I want to have confidence in them that I can go to them and say I have a problem or concern without them pulling in someone else and saying, “Let’s you and him fight.”
Correcting another employee’s behavior isn’t the responsibility of employees. It’s the responsibility of the boss. I’ve seen bosses who didn’t want that responsibility. I’ve heard of bosses that responded to serious complaints, like complaints about sexual harassment, with “You guys need to work it out.”
The OP, specifically, is in a position where he can’t work it out. He’s being treated unfairly by the boss, not by the coworker. The boss is allowing the behavior. The boss isn’t paying the overtime. The boss is doing the scheduling. Telling the OP that he should work it out with Kate is like a policeman telling the victim of a crime that he should sit down at Olive Garden with the mugger and come to some agreement.
That’s the way I see it. Although the OP is disgruntled by seeing what Kate is doing and what she’s getting, the root of the problem is management allowing her to do those things and giving her what she’s getting, while not allowing the OP to do likewise and not giving the OP as much. If the OP is indeed being treated unfairly, it’s by his boss(es). Kate is just an illustration of the unfairness.
The real question is, why is all of a sudden someone who has less seniority and appears to have less ability to do the job getting cut more slack and being given more earning opportunity that others who appear to be more deserving of such consideration? Why isn’t he being given more hours when he’s been there longer and can do the job better? Frankly, I’d be surprised if the answer reflects well on management.
If you really want to stay with this company and get promoted, I suggest a different tactic. Go to your boss and explain why you feel you deserve a raise / increased hours / more responsibility, etc. Leave Kate out of it. Your real beef is that there are things that you want that you aren’t getting, show your boss why you should be getting them.
You can all stop covering for Kate when she messes up though. My experience is that he might not see how bad she is now, but employees like this never make it very far, she will get herself into trouble one of these days. Maybe when your boss is less preoccupied with his wife and can focus on his job again he will be in a better position to change things.
Now if she is keeping you from doing your job, or doing things dangerously, that is worth bringing up. However, you don’t want to be seen as a whiner, as in “she gets this and I don’t!” The hours thing is an example, ask your boss why you aren’t getting the hours you want, don’t ask why she is. Does that make sense? Tell him you want to stay with the company and want to know what you can do to make yourself more valuable. Ask if there is something you can be doing that you are not. Make him start thinking of you as a motivated long-term employee instead of someone who complains.
I agree that the letter is a bad idea, especially right now. If I just found out my spouse was dying, I might be very inclined to overreact to such a letter and hold a grudge for a long time. He might not give a crap about his own job right now, much less yours.
I hope it depends on the situation. If I came to you because I saw my co-worker smoking crack in the bathroom, do I really need to run with that on my own? Or if I witness them harassing someone else?
I just feel the need to say, I don’t think I’ve ever had a problem with a coworker that a long, conversant lunch at the Olive Garden would solve. This strikes me as the epitome of lazy management, “go solve your own problems, kids, I’ve got better things to do”, like throwing a $20 bill at your feuding children so they’ll go buy candy and stop interrupting you during All My Children.
How about getting the other side of the story without doing an investigation or arranging a confrontation? If five people had a problem with another employee, who the hell is going to bring it up if they get made the bad guy? Even if the problem is 90% with the complainer (it’s happened in my group) isn’t it good to hear about it and do something about it?
I do think a joint meeting is useful sometimes - but only when the manager has a lot of information and a plan for resolving the confrontation. I can’t imagine how you can control a meeting when you’ve just heard of the problem and don’t know all the facts. Maybe you got a bunch of saints working for you, but in my experience people often need to be guided to a resolution.
Just a quick update: Our boss said he would “look into it”. Her 90-day evaluation is coming up, and he hinted that she probably wouldn’t be staying past that if she doesn’t straighten up.
To address a few points real quick:
-
My coworkers and I wouldn’t care so much if it were fair. I would have been fired long ago for pulling some of the stuff she does. All we’re asking for is that we can expect the same treatment as every other employee.
-
As for the letter thing, that isn’t all that uncommon where I work. The boss manages 2 different job sites, and generally works 7AM to 3PM. Being mall security, most of our scheduled hours are 4PM to 10PM. I sometimes go weeks without seeing the guy, so everyone pretty much communicates through memos and letters anyway.
-
As far as sleeping with the boss goes, she isn’t. She’s quite proud to be sleeping with one of the sheriff’s deputies who patrols the mall frequently (he’s 50, she’s 19. I proclaim ick, but that’s another topic entirely) and brags about this constantly, so we’re sure that we’re in the clear on that one.
See, that makes me think she would be more familiar with the back hallways of the mall. 