I’ll have to agree with you regarding flying. As a pilot I think that the closure of airspace is stupid. This is because I know about aircraft. In the same vein, I know about firearms. The restrictive laws we have were enacted because of fear by people who don’t know any better.
As far as “insecurity”, owning firearms does not make me feel any more secure than if I didn’t own them. None of the firearms owners I know feel the need to carry one with them, and none that I know are insecure about going out in society unarmed. This country was largely rural for a long, long time. People owned firearms much as we today own computers. No big deal. It’s not insecurity. We are just not uncomfortable aroud them. I live in Los Angeles, and there is much crime here. But I never carry a gun. Neither do almost all of the rest of the population here. If we were “insecure”, then people would change the laws so that they could carry firearms.
As far as Switzerland goes, yes; they are trained. They are familiar with firearms. Same thing here. It is only those who are unfamiliar with the things who are insecure.
Oh… There are plenty of gun threads in GD. The OP was asking for advice about gun ownership. Shall we continue the debate in the appropriate forum, and leave this thread for its intended purpose?
I had a whole response typed up to both David Cronan and the space-bar-challenged Mermaid. However, Johnny L.A. admirably jumped on that grenade. Good job Johnny!
I would, however, still like to address Mermaid’s extremely offensive generalizations. Please ask any woman who has a firearm because they scared of being assaulted, or want to protect themselves from being assaulted again, if they are “people-who-are-unable-to-communicate-in-a-reasonable-and-intelligent-
manner-or-men-who-need-to-prove-how-manly-they-are.”
There are women on this board who could answer your question from personal experience.
Unless you are planning to carry this weapon on your person–that is–concealed-- a handgun is a poor choice.
Your home can be defended far more effectively by a rifle, carbine or shotgun.
They are more effective, more accurate, and [sub]in my opinion[/sub] easier to use and to learn to use.
Many excellent used rifles in the .30 calibre are available.
Other calbres of rifles, new & used, are available, often at excellent prices.
Carbines are like rifles, but with shorter barrels. Typically, they tend towards smaller calibre ammunition.
Shotguns will mess up a human being quick. US Cops use them whenever there is real trouble, & this should tell you something.
If you intend to carry a concealed weapon, get the special license. No joke. Long term in the pokey if you get caught without one.
Finally, keep your guns locked up. Hiding them is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
I don’t own and gun and won’t for personal reasons. But I’ve seen every History Channel presentation on guns and read quite a bit. Unlike some liberal democrats, I am not at all opposed to people owning guns. I am very concerned for people under the age of 21 who are around guns and who are not very mature. If you have that situation, you might want to consider pepper sprays (which I do have and carry) which are inexpensive, effective and safe. If there is heavy drinking around the house, also reconsider.
Now, all that said, I think the advice about renting at a range is very good. If you can hire a retired police shooting instructor to help you out for a few hours, all the better, this will get you a good fit.
The 1911 people are talking about (a John Browning design from the year 1911) is one of the truly classic designs. However, it is a .45 calibre (45 one hundredths of an inch wide bullet) and has a relatively bigger kick. The U.S. military used it as a standard officers side arm until the late 1980s. Then the U.S. switched to the 9mm Beretta, the same side arm used by NATO allies. Beretta is the world’s oldest firearms manufacturer and they make a truly excellent gun. Make sure you check out a Beretta 9mm, as well as a Glock. The kick is not quite the same as a .45, so it may be a bit easier to handle.
umm no, mine is for hobby or self-defense.yes I own a big bad AK-47 and you dont like it, but thats ok by me. you dont need to like it. as someone else on the boards put it(not in this thread),there are people in the world who refuse to accept there is evil in this world…
agreed couldn’t agree more. thats why I posted this IMHO they’re better than triggerlocks…if the OP is thinking rifle, there are good lockers for them also. Just please dont try hide the thing if you have kids,they’ll always find it…
[Moderator Underoos on]The topic of this thread concerns the type of handgun to own, not whether or not to own one in the first place. Either stay on topic, or leave.[/Moderator Underoos on]
Responding to Demise’s comment: Mermaid’s statement caught my attention - I am a woman who enjoys shooting AND who has normal communication dysfunctions but is not particularly manly. I definitly agree with Johnnie L.A. that gun ownership is a personal choice - I own because I like the sport and I like the ability to protect myself. Lumpy’s questions shows that he is head and shoulders above the nucklehead who just runs out to the local gunshop to buy the biggest penis-compensator that he can find. I commend his motivation and cannot add any suggestions that havn’t already been brilliantly posted.
Personally, I am fond of my HK USP (the 9mm - I didn’t need the firepower of the .40 or .45), but I have large hands for a woman (years of piano lessons, I guess!). I don’t make it out to the range as much as I would like to (I used to work next to the NRA headquarters in Fair Oaks - what a great range that was). I wouldn’t dream of using a trigger lock.
Why isn’t “just wanting one” a good enough reason, Mermaid? Not a good enough reason by YOUR standard? hmmmm…
Just my two cents. If you’re starting out, I know the first reaction is to buy something small and easy going like a .22. That was my first gun too, but I was 12 and it certainly wasn’t for self defense. Personally I agree with the person who mentioned the .357 Magnum. I own a Smith and Wesson Model 686 with the 7 shot cylinder and 6 inch barrel. Forget all the hype about Smith rolling over for the government, it doesn’t change the fact that they make absolutely wonderful guns. I shopped around and really couldn’t find anything I liked better than the Smith. It’s expensive, but well worth it.
The biggest advantage of the .357 for a beginner is its ability to also shoot the lighter .38 specials. It gives you the best of both worlds.
My advice, buy a good .357. Yes, I like Smith, but there are other good ones out there. Just don’t go cheap. Buy a name brand, quality gun. It’s worth the extra money in the long run.
Take the safety class! Safety is the most important thing in the world.
Start with the lightest .38 special loads you can find and practice practice practice. Work your way up to heavier loads and to the .357s. If you’re going to use it for personal defense, you really want the power of the .357.
Last advice and I’ll shut up. Buy the longest barrel that will work comfortably for you and your particulary situation. In general, the longer the barrel, the easier it’s going to be to shoot accurately, especially starting out.
Sorry for the long post. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.
Small vs. large. There are two types of sizes: physical size and calibre. For a given calibre, the smaller the size, the more relative recoil there is because of reduced mass. Also, a small-in-size pistol or revolver has a shorter sight radius. The advantages of a small-in-size handgun is that it can be easily concealed and that it can be held by smaller hands. As I posted earlier, I feel no need to go about armed; so concealment isn’t an issue. To the other “advantage”, my hands are big enough to handle any handgun. So physically small handguns are valuable to me for an historical or novelty purposes. My favourite small handgun is the Walther PPK.
Handguns come in a large variety of calibres. Most popular are .22LR (Long Rifle), .25, .32, 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP – Automatic Colt Pistol), 9mm Luger (Parabellum), .38 special, .357 magnum, 10mm, .40, and .45 ACP. IMO, .25 and .32 should not be considered unless you’re a collector because there are other cartidges that are more readily available and cheaper.
Choice of calibre depends on the intended use. For target shooting, .22LR is great. It’s cheap so you can get lots of practice, and it’s the standard for international competition shooting. Recoil is virtually non-existant and they’re not too noisy. (I’ve always wondered about those people in movies who shoot large guns indoors, but are not deafened by the noise.) I know I’ve mentioned sport shooting in other posts, but the reality is that a gun can be used for defense. A .22 isn’t going to knock anyone down, but I wouldn’t want to be shot with one. They can be and have been deadly. So what about larger calibres?
Nine millimeter is the world standard for military pistols. This calibre combines stopping power with small size. It penetrates the target well (not an issue if you shoot paper like I do). I think this is a good all-around calibre.
Ten millimeter was designed, IIRC, for the FBI. It has more power than a 9mm, but is not as bulky as a .45. I’ve never fired one, but I understand they’re rather expensive for the power of the round.
Forty calibre seems to be the “new favourite” on the range. It’s smaller than the venerable .45 (which means more rounds in the magazine) and has good “knock down” power.
Forty-five ACP is the “knock down king”. If you’re shooting at bad guys this’ll clean their clocks. The Colt 1911/1991/Government Model and clones are very popular for competitive shooting. The chief disadvantage is that you need to reload more often. The .45 is a big round (almost 1/2") and most magazines only hold seven or eight of them.
Nine millimeter kurz (.380 ACP) is a nice round for a “pocket pistol”. Many people on these boards will tell you not to bother though. I disagree because I like the PPK. IMO this is the kind of round you shoot people with. This is because it’s too expensive for “plinking”, there aren’t really many people who target shoot with it, and the handguns that use it are designed to be concealed. I have no problem with anyone who wants to use a gun for defense, and a PPK is a nice thing to have in your pocket if you worry about being attacked on the street, but that’s about all it’s good for.
Thirty-eight special and .357 are similar. A .357 gun can use .38, but not vice versa. That was discussed earlier in the thread.
As to which calibre to choose, it’s up to you. For defense I’d choose 9mm or .40 calibre. For target shooting I’d choose a .22 LR. And if a .22 needs to be used in a “difficult situation”, remember that a hit with a .22 is worth more than a miss with a .45. First you need to decide what you will use the gun for, and then try the appropriate calibres out to see what you are most comfortable with.
Semi. I assume you mean “semiautomatic”? “Automatic” pistols are really semiautomatic. That is, they’re not machine guns. Except for some break-action and bolt-action target/hunting pistols, if it’s not a revolver it’s semiautomatic.
Price range. A Ruger Mk. II .22 pistol will probably cost about $250 or so. An HK USP .40 will cost about $700. Generally the rest will fall somewhere within that range.
Types of ammo. I’ve already talked a little about calibre, so here’s bullet shape. You have full metal jacket (FMJ) jacketed hollow point (JHP), unjacketed with truncated noses, round noses and hollowpoints, and specialty rounds. Probably more, but those just come to mind. A hollowpoint bullet will expand more than a round-nosed bullet when it hits the target mass. This translates to more energy being dissipated within the target. In other words, they’re good for messing someone up. Military people use JHP ammo because hollowpoints are considered cruel. I don’t know how it is with pistols, but match rifle ammunition tends to be boat-tail JHP.
If you’re shooting casually, anything that comes out of the barrel is good enough. Competitive shooting will require more careful selection of ammunition, and I do not have the expertise to advise on that. If you want to have a gun in your home for defense, check out the Glaser Safety Rounds Laslo mentioned earlier. You don’t want to shoot the next-door neighbour!
So it all comes down to what you like and what you’ll use it for, and what you’re comfortable with. The range I use charges $15 for two hours, 50 cents per target, and $10 per gun. If you’re going to spend a few hundred simoleons on a handgun, it’s worth spending a few bucks to find out what’s right for you.
I mentioned before that I like the Beretta 92FS. It fits my hand well, it holds 15 rounds in the magazine (I bought it years before the 10-round limit law was passed), it’s accurate, I’ve never had a jam, recoil is slight, and I like the “history” of it. (i.e., it’s the same as the M-9 used by the U.S. military, which appeals to my tastes – which is why I have the S&W .38 and the Colt .45 and the 1851s.)
Let me also toss another vote on the Beretta bandwagon, when I was considering my first gun purchases I went to the range and tried the rentals too. The beretta was so nice and smooth compared to many of the others probably due to its 5+ inch barrel which makes it a little more front heavy and softens the apparent recoil. I also own a Glock 19. If you shoot them both back to back its like comparing a fine brandy to budweiser. Don’t get me wrong Glock makes a damn good reliable gun and my little 19 is a blast to shoot. The beretta is just sooo much nicer. If price is an issue look into Taurus. IIRC they are a subsidiary of beretta, the Taurus PT-92 is basicly a clone of the Beretta 92FS (just a different safety I think). They are a bit cheaper for what is effectively “the same gun”.
Only one downside I know of on the Beretta, clean it like it is your pride and joy. A little grit in the slide rails and you will eat locking blocks (I had broken 2 before I learned this. I was competing in a very dusty outdoor area and wasn’t cleaning my dropped mags well before re-use).
Many people will preach the big bore guns like the world will end if you’re shooting less than .45 or.44. I have tried them and shrugged them off in favor of a more “managable” gun. As johnny LA just said, go with what feels good for you.
[don flame proof suit]
If you are uncomfortable with the Big Bang of centerfires, get a .22cal. IT WILL KILL, its just not as one shot devastating. As an EMT I saw several people die from single hits by .22’s. Its not luck, punching a hole in someone will do the trick, using a .22 means you will be better able to fire multiple shots quickly and accurately (which will take more practice with the big boys).
Actually, I agree 100%. 10mm is the same size round as a .40, but has more penetrating power, which you don’t want in a home defense situation. A Sig P229 .40 would be my gun of choice. It’s on the pricy side, but it’s a quality firearm.
Bosda does have a point, though. A shotgun might be more suitable for home protection to a gun novice than a pistol. It is definitely harder to miss your target.
I agree. If you have a shotgun, you may not even have to fire it. Just the rack-rack of a pump action can be a convincing deterrent. I didn’t mention a shotgun though, because Lumpy was asking about handguns. Also, at least in this area, it’s easier to find a nearby indoor range for handguns than it is to find an outdoor range for shotguns. (Of course my bias is toward hobby shooting, not defense.)
Are you sure about that? I think most intruders are cowards who do not want to confront anyone. That’s why most break-ins occur when the occupants are not home. (Which is an excellent reason to keep the guns locked in a safe.)
