African-American neighborhood does not want a Trader Joe's

Great Debates
101

It’s only good for you IF you own your property, AND plan on selling it or borrowing it against it. Otherwise, it’s an appreciating asset that just costs you more money in property taxes, costs of upkeep, etc.

They probably don’t, but I don’t think they contended that they do.

I am a TJ’s shopper as well, but let’s be honest here. You (presumably) do not live in a poor, urban, majority-minority area. TJ’s caters to YOUR tastes and needs, not the people who actual live in those areas. My local TJ sells things like aracini balls, beef bourguignon, and lamb vindaloo. Even less exotic fair like hamburgers are frozen Kobe Burgers that sell for $3 each. I like TJ’s a lot, but I think they clearly have a customer in mind that is distinctly unlike those who seem to live where they want to build. It would be like a building a movie theater in a Spanish-speaking neighborhood that doesn’t show movies in Spanish.

And that is really the main issue people have with gentrification. While a lot of it is justifiably framed by race, most of it is really just annoyance that businesses come into an area, and have little desire to actually serve the residents of that area. I don’t think it’s usually nefarious. It’s just that business owners trying to justify their decisions using business norms, and people criticizing them using social norms. The reality is that poor minorities are often not as profitable for stores like TJ’s, so they don’t mind tacitly going along with trends that exacerbate gentrification, and supplant the local populace with others that are better for their bottom line.

Many of these gentrified areas were poor minority areas first because of segregation, then because they were allow to rot due to intentional neglect. Now, many of those same areas are changing because the same groups that objected to living there amongst minorities now need to because they are getting priced out of other more-desirable areas. Then once, some critical mass of young, early adopters moves in, businesses that could have been there this whole time decide that it’s now worth their while.

At some point, we need to address the ramifications of treating poor people as an inherent societal liability that is pushed aside as much as possible.

102

Seems like the city government is damned if it does and damned if it doesn’t. On one hand, the people get upset about gentrification and the corresponding displacement and community disruption, and on the other hand, they are already upset about poverty and poor living conditions.

I’m not sure how a government can do one without the other- like tomndebb said, most efforts will result in an area more attractive to people with more money.

103

Here is the actual letter that the PAALF sent to the city in regard to the development.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/929379-paalf-letter-regarding-trader-joes.html
There was no direct opposition to Trader Joe’s (that was mentioned once, in passing). Instead, the opposition was to what the PAALF perceived as a city give-away to another national corporation, (Majestic Realty), after being promised by various government agencies that efforts would be made to reduce gentrification.

104

What are you talking about? Yes, TJ’s sells some fancy snacks and some prepared foods, but they also have prices on milk, cheese, flour, basic canned and frozen goods, peanut butter, dried fruits and nuts, juice, etc. (not to mention standard non-yuppie snacks like potato chips) that are quite comparable to the citywide supermarket chains. It’s entirely possible to buy normal groceries there for the same prices as Jewel (or Dominick’s, until they just went belly-up). And the chain supermarkets sell fancy and expensive foods, too.

105

“Competitive” is not “cheap.”

Having a range of basics is not the same as being a full-scale grocery. I don’t think I could do a quarter of my regular shopping at a TJ’s, especially when you consider the range of non-food household items even modest grocery stores carry.

It’s not about being able to buy a jar of peanut butter one place or the other. It’s a matter of bring an appropriate community anchor… and in this case the community’s opposition is 100% correct.

106

A lot that fits a TJ is not going to fit a full-size supermarket. It’s not actually a choice between one or the other. Has any supermarket even expressed interest in the location?

107

Well, it makes sense when the city is offering you big incentives and working hard to convince you that the neighborhood is on its way to “improvement.”

Then too, we’re talking distances of a mile or two between MLK and Alberta and the “gentrified” Mississippi and Alberta neighborhoods, tops.

108

TJ’s is great if you don’t mind doing your grocery shopping at multiple places. TJ’s has a lot of offerings, but if you’re looking for toiletries, diapers, certain kinds of snack foods, and the national brands you’ve grown to know and love? TJ isn’t the right spot for you. This is one reason why I don’t shop there very often, even though I love the store. I’m all for “one stop shopping” and TJ’s doesn’t offer this experience.

So I can understand why residents might prefer a different grocer or kind of business altogether. TJ is definitely better than nothing. But it doesn’t have to be a choice between nothing and Trader Joe’s. That’s a false dichotomy.

109

Thanks for posting. I wish there was a stated alternative to TJs and development in the letter. I understand their concerns, and have no argument with their stance - except the lack of a specific recommendation of what COULD be done with that property.

  • Is there another buyer at that price?
  • The “hire local” requirement can be done, but I don’t know Portland employment laws to comment. Was that presented at the time I wonder?
110

I do shop at three or four sources on a regular rotation, but even then, TJs simply has too little for me to spend time visiting it - I don’t buy the plethora of stuff they are famous for, and I get my staples more conveniently (and largely cheaper - in part because I don’t buy 8-ounce peanut butter) elsewhere.

Better than absolutely nothing else, maybe. But in cases like this, I think a convincing argument can be made that a vacant lot is better than everything a TJs represents and would bring.

111

You understand the distinction, as do many here that have flamed me, but you choose to ignore it. The thing is, you and others react reflexively first (OOOOOOH! Racist racist racist!!!) and then try to justify that reaction to yourselves after the fact. And yes, I fully intended to insult those who insulted ME by calling me a racist. Call me names and I just might respond.

I do realize that arguing with such people is utterly futile. My error was in thinking that anyone–ANYONE–would see my essential point. But criticizing black people is so taboo that doing so creates an impenetrable fog of unreason.

If you want some background, I lived about a mile from this area for five years and commuted through it daily. It was a disaster, then some courageous people moved into the area and started up some businesses. Local activists fought them every step of the way. Many shops were vandalized. The neighborhood looks quite a bit better now (though the improvements have been patchy and there are still some extremely run-down areas), but that’s despite the efforts of the local residents, not because of them. And yes, those local activists put a racial charge into every single one of their objections.

112

As far as I can tell, that offer was exclusive to Trader Joe’s. It is suspected that the city developers wanted gentrification to take place, so there is no way they would offer a 2.4 million dollar piece of property to a Safeway, Albertsons or Thriftway, the type of stores lower income people tend to shop in, for a mere $502,000.

113

What are the rents like, what do houses in that area now sell for, and who lives there now? The only people that came out ahead are the landlords.

114

You may not realize it, but the way you used terms like “bro” and “sista” and “blighted crack house neighborhood” (not to mention comically ignorant of the neighborhood in question) was profoundly racist. Hopefully, you can learn from this experience, but so far it seems unlikely.

Whatever your point was in that post, it was sunk as soon as you spouted racist nonsense.

See? You are capable of making a point in a reasonable way without spouting racist nonsense.

115

It does, but you have to obtain a permit to open one. It’s quite clever.

116

I ignored nothing. You chose your words to identify an entire population within the U.S. and then tried to backpedal, claiming that you were only talking about some smaller segment of that population, still not well identified.

You got caught. Tough.

Insult people outside The BBQ Pit on this MB and you will be banned.

117

Do you really not understand why people might think you are a racist though? I don’t know you personally, but let’s play a little game. Since you assume everyone here is aware of your intended sentiment, how do you think someone you feel is a racist might have expressed those sentiments relative to how you expressed them? What would they say that your post was missing? How much of it would have been pretty similar in your opinion?

I thought you were criticizing some people who happen to be Black, rather than Black people? That said, do you really think there are not tons of critiques made about Black people that are not met with cries of racism?

What specifically makes you say that, and why do you feel you are qualified to make the bolded claim?

118

[QUOTE=Shodan]
Or just leave it a vacant lot, and hire some local to sweep out the syringes and condoms once a week or so. That would attract foot traffic, and not drive up the rents.

[/QUOTE]

God, it must good to be white. This Phillip Seymor Hoffman or whatever his name is was found with a needle up his arm. Where are the endless sea of cites linking depression and poverty with heroin use from your “bros” and “sistas” in Appalachia? Where are the cites about your “bros” and “sistas” in these low-population areas, getting angry, throwing a temper tantrum before emptying a clip into a crowd of students? Where are the cites about your “bros” and “sistas” beating up on homeless people, sniffing rock candy, or eating semen-covered oreos? Where are your posts disparaging the “white community” for these shenanigans? Don’t worry, those questions were rhetorical, as Chris Rock notes, when you’re white, it’s all right.

It’s not that you’re criticizing black people, you’re doing what the rest of the majority does on the SDMB (and the country does): put a black person on a pedestal and then claim they are the representatives of all blacks. It’s silly, stupid, and racist. If you don’t like black people or wish us gone, please contact your U.S Representative or Senator to give me my forty acres and a mule plus interest and I’ll gladly pull a James Baldwin and move to Europe. Win-win.

I wonder why.

  • Honesty
119

This happened in an interesting way in my community some years ago, when a rich black dude invaded a poor white folk community and threatened to expel them all.

Swannanoa, NC, is a poor Appalachian community with a heavily white population. A lot of families can trace their roots back many generations in the town. Property values, and hence property taxes, are very low. It’s some gorgeous mountains up there.

So gorgeous that Tiger Woods decided to build a gated golf community up there. The plan would be for these very expensive houses to surround a world-class golf course. Billboards went up all over the place and ground was broken.

Locals were terrified. If the plan went through, then their own property values would almost certainly rise–with the result being a property tax rate that they could no longer afford. Locals anticipated being forced to sell land that their great-grandparents had lived on.

Fortunately (?), the recession hit, and last I heard Woods is desperately trying to find someone, anyone, to buy the place up.

Y’know, some people, when they encounter a question like that, would realize that maybe their own analysis of the situation was flawed and would re-examine the conclusions they’d drawn, maybe even do some research to figure out what the honest answer to their question was. Just sayin’.

120

What I find sorta interesting about this issue vs. the competeing idea of food deserts*. I know nothing of the neighborhood, so this may not apply as they might have enough food stores in the area.

Assuming that the area does have a food desert issue going on, then this seems to be a very odd choice for the PAALF.

Ah, after reading the actual complaint from the PAALF, it seems the food desert appears to not be an issue.

I read the whole thing. This is my interpretation of it. Note, I have no dog in this fight and don’t care which way it goes.

#1. Assessed at 2.9 M, sold at 500,000. That could be an issue. It depends on when the assessment was done. I know that many assessed values are way to high as the assessments took place during the real estate run up and the properties have not been reassessed since the debacle. Hard to know on this without knowing when the assessment was done.

#2. Non-oppressed populations. This dings my ‘Its all about race’ bell pretty hard. And it also pings my ‘we want more handouts’ bell pretty hard as well with the statement ‘The choice to not provide family affordable housing above the proposed Trade Joes retail space…’.

#3. We, the African American community, want stuff. You aren’t giving us what we want even though we have supported some community action plans, sat on boards and participated in meetings. We demanded ‘stabilization and support’. We didn’t get what we want so we conclude that the meetings, etc, were all a sham to provide political justification to get the store built. This could be true. Or not. However, without knowing what plans the PAALF has, it is hard to tell if they have offered anything a) worthwhile and b) workable and c) equitable.

#4. Gentrification is happening and we want stuff. Without more stuff, in this case an affordable housing mandate and a hiring agreement, more gentrification will happen. We don’t want to move 'cause we will just end up somewhere else just as screwed as we are now. This may, or may not be true though my guess is that some people would have this issue. What percentage would have problems? No idea. I understand the gentrification issue but don’t know enough about the area to make much of an argument either way.

#5. People want our stuff. Specifically, Rich people want Black peoples stuff. No comment on this other than to say that people, usually, want more than they presently have regardless of race.

#6. Gentrification has hit lots of Black inner city neighborhoods. The City and PDC are aware that urban renewal will hit the Black community. No idea on this one, but I assume someone, somewhere did an impact assessment.

#7. We aren’t in a food desert. Appears to be true.

#8. Really, we aren’t in a food desert.

#9. Politicians and developers are using social issues against us. I could fully believe that as I don’t trust politicians much. And most developers have to jump in bed with the politicians…

What we want:

#1. Stop all development in the Interstate Corridor Urban Renewal Area. That seems a bit much, however there may be more backstory to this that I am unaware of.

#2. We want an audit. I never object to those for government agencies.

#3. Don’t build on the corner until we reach an agreement where you give us stuff. This seems to be a bit of self throat cutting but I could be wrong.

#4. Force a hospital to give us land. 40 years ago the hospital expansion displaced some Black businesses so we want stuff. This one loses me. I understand that there might have been, and given the time frame, probably was some racial components to the land issue 40 years ago. However, when does the clock on that stop?

As I said, I have no dog in this fight. The PAALF appears to have some valid points but some others seem to be a grab for stuff. That does make some sense as if you are going to bargain, always ask for more than you want.

Slee