Did you forget about Egypt? There’s that whole Judeo-Christian thingy.
You think every bit of this is relevant to our lives today? I got a trivia question about the Diet of Worms right at the bar on Tuesday, but that was the first time I’d thought about it since high school. I assure you that most of it has no discernable impact on our day-to-day lives. In college and my career so far, what there is of it, I’ve had to know nothing about the Fuggers of Augsburg, the Holy Roman Empire, or a great deal of other things I learned in school.
Basically it IS African.
You’re still misusing “Western,” and what you’re saying here demonstrates that this is entirely American. You’ve got African, European and original influences. Giving the context for everything European (which in turn came from the Middle East/North Africa region) while ignoring the African stuff doesn’t make sense.
I mentioned Egypt at some point in one of my posts, but actual Egyptian influence on Western Civilization is pretty slight. Unless, of course, you buy into the notion that when the Jews were in Egypt they picked up monotheism from the Egyptians. I hope that no one would seriously believe that, though.
I’m a strong advocate of lcoal autonomy in shcools, so if this is what the majority of the parents want, so be it. As to whether it’s wise policy or not, it would seem better to beef up the coverage of African History as part of a World History requriement than to create a special course. African-American History could of course be covered in American History. This seems like a feel good measure that will not do much to improve the overall education of the kids. Of course, most kids skate thru history classes without remembering much anyway…
Jesus Christ, what a schedule. I am a guy who never really understood the point of AP classes, plus I went to a school that only offered a couple of them anyway. And there is no way you’d ever get me to take AP Biology, much less two years of biology. If my school had offered AP Chemistry, I would have been all over that. But AP English, history, language, economics, government and so on? Hell no. I generally hate most English classes–they were either pedantic, boring things on grammar or reading/deconstructing novels I generally had no interest in reading. I say that Dick is far more relevant than Dickens, Heinlein than Hardy, and Asimov than Austen.
And what the hell do you do with all those AP classes, anyway? If you’re going to college, they aren’t all going to transfer. If you love to learn, you are still going to have areas you like and areas you don’t. I don’t like biology–I would’ve taken that first year then gotten out and found something interesting to take instead. Some of these things just boggle me–computer credit? I’ve been using a computer since I was four, a true IBM PC using an Intel 286 processor. If it’s a programming class, maybe it’d be useful, but if it’s basically Computing for Dummies, I’d be seriously pissed off if I had to take it, much as I was seriously pissed off when I had to take a Computing for Dummies class my first year of college.
Look, I’ve got nothing against people who want to do that sort of thing. There are far worse things to be doing during high school than spending all your time in AP classes. But considering what else I was doing in high school, you would never have gotten me to probably drop all my other activities (not that I had many) to do nothing but take high-pressure classes. I was in marching and concert band for all four years of high school, which gave me at least a group to be with in high school and an outlet and something different (not to mention some easy credits) in college. I was in Boy Scouts, and it was a pretty active troop–I missed about three months of camping trips and a month’s worth of meetings pretty much every fall during high school because of band comittments, and scouting was my big outside activity. I learned a whole lot more in scouting than I ever did in a whole lot of my classes. Heck, I agree that you can even be better-rounded simply through classes. I wound up going to a liberal arts school because I wanted to be able to take advantage of both a good chemistry department but also have a chance to take some more advanced classes in the humanities that you wouldn’t get at a tech school. I’m just not sure I see why taking a class seems to be the be-all and end-all to a lot of people. Even the best AP class is nothing more than a general study with more papers and tests and pressure than a similar class that’s not AP.
What he’s saying, and as far as I know he’s on very solid ground, that both Jewish and Christian mythology borrowed heavily from their Egyptian predecessor. For example, Osiris died and came back to life, just like this Christian guy whose name escapes me… 
Not to be snotty about it, but I’d have been bored off my ass without them. My favorite classes in high school were mostly APs.
You are taking the short-sighted view that history is just names and dates. It’s not. History is the ideas and the culture that were shaped through the centuries and which gave us the culture we have today. Sure, you may not know much about the actual Diet of Worms, but the consequences of the Diet of Worms and the Reformation clearly influences our world today. The law that you studied is based on laws that date back thousands of years. New laws made in accordance with traditions that go back thousands of years. THAT is history. The fact that you can’t see how this has influence today shows the poor state of history teaching in today’s schools.
The form of rap is African, but the ideas expressed are from Western Civilization. I’m not ignoring the African stuff; I’m merely showing how little of a role it actually plays.
And if you think that European civilization came from the Middle East and North Africa you need to go back and take some history courses. Yes, the Christian religion that started in the Middle East is responsible for much of our civilization, but North Africa gave us very little. Much of Western Civilization is due to Athens and Greece, and can’t be traced back to either the Middle East or North Africa.
Actually, he’s on very shaky ground. There are certainly similarities between Jewish, Christian, and Egyptian mythology, but correlation is certainly not causation. Just because Egypt has a resurrection story (as do many other cultures around the world) does not mean that this influenced the story of Christ. You can’t say that because they are similar that one must have borrowed from the other.
This is vastly overstated. You yourself said that because your ancestors came from Quebec 130 years ago, any sort of cultural affinity you might claim to have with the Quebecois would be specious. That’s my point here – there’s really a huge disconnect between America as it is today, and Europe of 100 or 200 years ago, let alone Europe of 2,000 years ago. Just because you can tease out some connection between ancient Rome and modern America does not mean that that connection is vital – or even relevant – for functioning in this society.
You make a somewhat valid point, one I’ll paraphrase and adopt myself. "The form of government is Roman, but the ideas expressed are from trade concerns tied in inextricably with protecting the rights of plantation traders and property owners in the TransAtlantic slave trade moreso than adopting ancient Western Civilization (which includes antecedents from Middle Eastern religions, Egyptian government and parallels earlier developments in Mali’s Songhai Empire and ancient 4th century Ghana.) I’m not ignoring the Roman stuff; I’m merely showing how little of a role it actually plays beyond form.
When it comes to major belief systems in the ancient world, especially tied to Creation myths and the nearby Middle Eastern religions, correlation almost always involved causation.
And you’re telling me that’s not how it’s usually taught?
A world in which few people know the details of the history, and yet manage to get along just fine. That’s what I’m getting at.
I know exactly what you’re talking about; please turn the condescension down a notch or two. I studied the things you’re talking about.
Make that a minimum of four or five notches.
“The Cradle of Civilization,” where Western society began, is in the Middle East. I presume you’ve heard of Iraq? Mesopotamia, Sumeria and Babylon are that Tigris/Euphrates region of Iraq and Sudan. That’s where we get the Code of Hammurabi, which includes the concept of “innocent until proven guilty” and is the oldest attempt to codify and make the knowledge of the law public as far as I know… are you sure you can press this case as far as you think you can?
Yes, that’d be stupid. Of course, Egypt is also right next to Israel. The link between another Egyptian myth and the story of Moses being taken from a river (the name Moses is taken from Egyptian, for crying out loud) seems hard to dispute.
I’m not talking about a cultural similarity – of course America today is nothing like Europe of even 100 years ago. However, the basis for our language, law, politics, economic system, etc., is based on what developed in Europe (and Palestine) over the course of the past 3,000 years. Knowing this connection is vital and it is relevant, because if you don’t know the bases of of these things, you don’t know your own culture or your own civilization.
You’d be suprised. I took Euro/American History, Econ, Chem, Physics and Calc which along with some credit for German got me basically a years worth of college credit. Not all of it applies towards my major but it lets me schedule early and avoid labs.
I know that’s how it’s usually taught, and it’s sad.
Sure, they get along just fine, but they live in ignorance. They also miss out on quite a lot when they discuss politics and culture because they have no idea of its antecedents.
Of course, the law as laid down by the Jews provides a much clearer line of influence to our modern world. I don’t doubt the influence of the Middle East in our culture. How about North Africa, though?
Again, there are similarities in myth throughout the world. Many Native American, Asian, and European myths have similar stories. So what? There is a huge amount of differences between these cultural myths, too. It seems clear that if you look at Egyptian myths and the Bible that there is little, if any, influence of Egyptian ideas on the book.
Weren’t you just talking about history being the ideas and culture that were shaped through the centuries? How can you start with the Jews and ignore Mesopotamia?
If I’d planned it, I could’ve finished at college a semester or two early because of my AP credits.
smiling bandit. My freshman college course was precisely like you described, and I can only fault the professor at the time and not the material being taught. A dull lecturer can kill interest in anything compelling.
asterion. Not to get too far off topic, but high school AP courses these days are usually offered in conjunction with, and designed for credit acceptance at a specfic university system, particularly those colleges and universities with reciporical credit transfers.
Sal Ammoniac. Thank you for pointing out that our culture is not static.
Rebob. You did it again. “For African-Americans the basis for our way of speaking, our traditions, laws discriminating against us, our political concerns, our art forms, our cultural institutions, etc., are based on what developed in West Africa, the abuses of the TransAtlantic slave trade (and Arabic trade in and around Saharan Africa) over the course of the past 400 years. Knowing this connection is vital and it is relevant, because if you don’t know the basis of of these things, you don’t know your own culture or your own civilization.” BTW, much of Africa around the Sahara – both the “white” north and many cultures of the “black” south is Arabic, and has been for centuries. I am continually amazed so many people would keep trying to prop up this artificial difference. The Sahara is no real obstacle to trade and the spread of culture and ideas.
But does it make sense to bundle all that into one class or to spread it out over all four years? As I said earlier, the World History curriculum is moving away from “Western Civ with chapters on Asia, Africa, and the Americas” at the end and into a true world class, and U.S. History classes ought to integrate African American History.
I do think that you could make a very coherent arguement for dumping Freshman Geography for an African-American history class–or, even better, reducing geography to a semester-long class and inserting an African-American history class. My only point is that the debate needs to be framed in those terms --not “Is African American history worth studying?” I mean, EVERYTHING is worth studying, as far as I am concerned, but “Is African American History MORE worthwhile than learning about physical, social, and political characteristics of contemporary nations of the world?” That’s what this debate has to be about, if it is to have any meaning.
Also, while Yale’s not going to give you credit for all those AP classes, they are a hell of a lot more likely to let you in at all if they see that AP credit. And state colleges will often give you credit for as many tests as you passed. I’ve known at least one kid who enrolled at UT as a junior and many that enrolled as sophmores.
Furthermore, a LOT of my kids are first generation. They have a real and present need to join the workforce as soon as possible and with as little debt as possible.