Again the Bush admin hits the working man. Comp time vs overtime.

I’m just wondering… Is there ANY discretion you guys are willing to give an employer? It seems that just about any business decision they make that could adversely effect employees, you guys want to do away with.

What’s so hard to understand about the Employer needing some discretion around when to allow the time-in-lieu? After all, the reason he’s paying employees time-and-a-half to work overtime is because he’s in a crunch. He needs to be protected from employees who work overtime one day, then take a day and a half off the next.

Like I said, this gives the employer the flexibility to set up the way in which time-in-lieu will be offered, and the employee the option to turn down the offer. What is so unfair about that?

The current wage-and-hour laws require employers to pay time-and-a-half for any hour over 40 worked in a work week.

However, government (federal, state, local) entities are exempt from this law and have the option of giving their employees their regular rate of pay plus a half hour paid time off for every hour they work over 40.

This is what Monty is referring to.

Incidentally, currently it is only government employers that are exempt. If any other employer out there is offering time off in lieu of time-an-a-half they are breaking the law. Of course, who would find out?

“After all, it may be at the employee’s discretion but then the manager might choose to note that it is at his/her discretion that the employee remains employed at the company.”
This seems to assume that the employer has spare bargaining power left which he hasn’t used. Why not? If this threat is so powerful wouldn’t the employer have used it already to drive down wages or benefits? It seems reasonable to assume that whatever the relative bargaining power is, it has played out in terms of the total package of wages,benefits, working conditions etc. Allowing more choices for the employee with overtime doesn’t increase the bargaining power of the employer but merely allows both of them more flexibility to make mutually beneficial working arrangements…

Out of curiousity, what happens if an employee works overtime, opts to take compensation as paid time off later (say, at the end of the month), then gets fired/laid off before that time comes? Will he be compensated for the overtime at time-and-a-half? Will he get compensated at his regular rate (thus getting screwed for the extra -and-a-half time)? Or will he just be told “TFB”?

As it’s illegal to not pay someone for time worked, the employer would have to add the time-and-a-half to your final check. It’s the same as if you were fired, say, halfway through the work week. Your employer can’t just say “TFB, you don’t get paid for those hours you already worked.”

And how long do you think it will take employers to “hint” that employees better not ask for money?

10 seconds after the bill signs into law, I’d guess.

On its face, the Family-Time Flexibility Act," can only help employees, since they are the ones who have the option to select the time and a half or the comp time. Why do so many posters find this harmful to employees?

I think it comes from a POV that employers and employees are adversaries. From this it follows that if a law helps employers it must hurt employees.

In my experience, this POV is mostly false. Employers and employees mostly work cooperatively to accomplish the organization’s goals. It’s generally in the employer’s interest to maintain employees morale.

I work at a profitable company in the Fortune 1000. At this time I am paid time and a half for over time. Last year 11% of my pay was due to overtime and so far this year it is about 15%.

In the cited article the Fair Labor Standards Act was brought up. It is entirely possible that I could become an salaried employee if the changes being considered come into effect.

I for one do not want to take a 10% to 15% pay cut.

There is co worker who has been offer a promotion, but because it would mean losing overtime he will not take it. He does not want a paycut either.

**BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HEE-HOO-HA-HA-HA! HEE-HEE-HEE! <SNORT> GIGGLE> WHEE-HEE-HEE-HEE! Funniest thing I’ve read in years! <snicker> **

So, just how many decades has it been since you were an hourly wage-earner in the workplace, december?

When you start with the assumption that employers are evil, I can see where you would come to that conclusion. I find it amazing that many of those who fear giving employers and employees more flexibility in dealing with each other have no qualms at all about turning our entire health care system over to the gov’t. Nothing breeds corruption like a monopoly on power, and only the gov’t has that monopoly. The gov’t needs to be restricted far more than any employer does. Employees are generally free to switch employers if things don’t work out for them. We’re stuck with the gov’t, and once that institution is given more power, it rarely, if ever, is able to give it up.

Four. But, I had hourly wage-earners reporting to me throughout my career. I didn’t look for ways to make their lives miserable or to screw them out of their entitlements. On the contrary, I looked for ways to accomodate them.

I call BS on this one. :dubious:

Your posts do not in any way suggest that you are now or ever have been accomidating.

Rather, your “body of work” strongly suggests that you are wildly out of touch with living/working conditions of today, & that you simply ignore any evidence or opinion that disagrees with your own.

You pretty obviously have a darn comfortable income, or did before you retired.

I cannot believe that you are one of the many senior citizens who have to scrape to make the rent, & sacrifice buying the prescriptions they need in order to do so. :dubious:

I challenge you to answer this question–Do you believe that it is possible to live on the minimum wage, as it exists today?

I don’t know. As a graduate student, I supported a family of three on a fellowship of $200 a month. We were pretty comfortable, with an old used car, a TV set, and adequate food and medical care.

A full-time job at today’s minimum wage of $5.15 per hour would be $10,300/year. After adjusting for inflation, I’d say my $2,400/year had more spending power. Anyone trying to support a family of 3 on $10,300 per year in the San Francisco Bay Area would have difficulty doing so. I suppose they could take advange of food stamps and other government programs, but they’d still have a tough time making ends meet.

Bosda:

What the hell does the minimum wage have to do with this discussion about flexible pay/comp time? Attacking someone as you just did will do nothing to strengthen your argument-- it will only do the exact opposite.

I see it less of a employer’s discretion issue and more of a fairness issue.

If this law were passed then a unscrupulous employer could tell an employee “either work overtime and take the comp time or don’t work overtime”(and anecdotal reports have already substantiated that some employers with “comp time” policies in fact do this). It essentially puts a back door in to ensure that no matter how many hours an employee works, the employer never has to pay over $X per hour(which employers absolutely LOVE because it stabilizes the cost sections of the balance sheet, so there is a fairly strong motivation to do the “comp time or the highway” approach). They just take the extra hours and give them paid time off instead of extra cash.

To be fair, the bill does try to stop this. There is a bit in the summary that says

This passage would make it illegal to fire(or refuse to hire) someone for choosing to take cash over paid time off for compensation for overtime. Unfortunately, proving that you were fired for choosing cash instead of paid time off, or proving that you weren’t hired because you chose cash instead of PTO, is virtually impossible. I appreciate the sentiment behind this clause, but I just don’t see this as an effective control measure.

There are two problems with the bill as is. First is that it undermines the idea behind the “time and a half” laws. Extra work beyond 40 should result in extra CASH, not just “some extra compensation of some type”. A supermarket is not allowed to offset their employee’s overtime hours with coupons for free food, for example. A fair number of low to medium income families rely on the extra cash from some fairly regular overtime pay to cover expenses and occasional overtime work to cover incidental expenses(emergencies, etc). My brother and his wife did fairly well largely due to the fact that he worked 60 hours a week during his businesses busy season and got time and a half for each hour over 40. If his employer had given him no extra money for the overtime during the busy season and instead had simply promised extra time off during the slow season I’m not sure they would have done as well. After my father in law lost his long(nearly twenty years) battle with cancer, my mother in law took a job which paid overtime and worked obscene hours. She desperately needed the extra cash from overtime to make ends meet. Time-in-lieu wouldn’t have helped either of these situations.

The second problem is the employer’s discretion as to when the time is taken bits. As I noted above, with the current version of the law, the employer gets to choose when the time off will be taken. Jobs which are largely seasonal or cyclical could burn an employee at both ends during the busy season, give them tons of time off during the slow season, and never pay them more than minimum wage. As noted above, typically the single largest line item on an employers cost sheet is employee wages. If this line item fluxuates, then it is a nightmare to manage. Stabilizing it is a huge priority for most businesses. Being able to calculate a flat-rate wage for employees, regardless of the number of hours worked, would be a serious boon and would create real pressure on management to get employees to choose this option.

I feel there are good parts of the bill, and I agree with the idea of offering flexibility in compensation terms. I disagree with legislation which gives one side more discretion, or an incentive to use subtle pressures(comp time or the highway) to restrict the other side’s choices. As of now the bill allows for up to 160 hours of comp time to be accrued each year. It takes approximately 106 overtime hours to earn the maximum PTO benefit of 160 hours. The Christmas shopping season is approximately five weeks. If a seasonal establishment chose, they could work their employees 61 hours a week at a 40-hour week flat rate for those five weeks, and then give them the month of Febuary off. This particular scenario probably couldn’t happen because time has to be cashed out at the end of the year(according to the summary), but it certainly could happen to other industries whose busy seasons fall in other parts of the calendar year. The scenario might actually even be possible depending on the actual language of the bill. There may be langauge in there mentioning the fiscal year or some other way of avoiding the calendar year end cut off.

I don’t like being wholly negative, so what could we do to fix the bill? A couple of ideas come to mind.

  1. Make the time available to redeem at the employee’s discretion, with adequate notice to the employer and maybe in agreed-upon blocks. The amount of time needed as notice would be specified in the contract. This would go a LONG way towards making it fair and reducing the ability of either side to abuse it.

  2. Put some teeth in that “shall not be a condition of employment” bit. Not sure how, but things like “take comp time or hit the highway” should never be said when asking an employee to agree to work overtime. This dovetails with John Mace’s point about giving one side an unequal share of the discretion. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. There needs to be safeguards if we’re going to do this at all.

Enjoy,
Steven

Mtg: You must’ve missed the bit about where the employer must pay for unused comp time. But let’s not let facts get in the way of the gang diatribe against the feds.

Well, for me personally, either one would be okay.

Not because I don’t like extra money, and not because I’m lazy (I am, but that’s not the point), but because the place I currently work is still in the “just getting started” territory.

If they paid me for overtime, it would cripple them financially. Then again, if they gave me comp time, it would put me out of the loop for several extra days a month, and that would hurt them as well.

I’ve put in 70 hour weeks before, and my average one is proabably around 50.

I guess my point is that people should be happy with what they get either way. If you want to know why, try running an empoyment ad sometime. Our last one here got somelike like 70 responses in two days, and that’s in the tiny craphole of Jackson, Mississippi.

Keep in mind, of course, that’ I’m not doing this out of the goodness of my heart. I expect to be well compensated once the place takes off. Naturally, if they screw me, they go down in flames.

-Joe

Enjoy,
Steven

We are discussing labor relations, and yes–it does come down to money. Never trust a man who says he’s in it “for the principle of the thing”. Like hell. It’s the money.

As a bay area dude, i can say there is no way they could afford anything on $10,300 a year. but the minimum wage here is higer, IIRC. (and Mcdonalds was offering starting wages at $10 and hour a few months ago.). where i used to live in the midwest $10000 would get you alot farther but i doubt you could support a family on that. (you’d be living with your parents, and hoping their insurance cover the kid)

Here is a graph supposedly showing real value of the minimum wage over the years.
Now so this is OP related, if the employee gets to pick what he does, i have no problem with the law. Many places i worked hated giving overtime and would send people home who were at 40 hours for that week (probably a company decree), so this happens anyway at some places.