Flex Time for Employees with Children.

Should companies give Flex time only to employees that have children, or would that be discrimatory? Should it be mandatory that all employees recieve it, such as for taking classes or such for those single, childless employees?

note: I saw this discussion on TV last night (at a friends house, since I don’t own a TV :slight_smile: ) The woman of course said that it was not discrimination for the companies to not allow flex time for childless employees. Of course she also seemed to imply that those that did not have children where worthless…grr.

I did a search, didn’t find this topic, so I think I’m safe.

How about we let the companies decide what they want to offer in order to attract the best employees?

Feedom, it is stil a legitimate question:

Would the diadvantages of offering all employess flextime outweigh the increased number (and hence quality) of employess we would attract? Is it morally acceptable for a company to offer flextime only to couples with children?

The OP was asking how the world should be, not suggesting how the world should be mandated.

“Morally” acceptable? Why not? Since when did this become a matter of morality?

I’m with Freedom. Let the company decide what to offer, and let them suffer the consequences of bad decisions. As an employee, factor the company’s employment benefits into your decision.

If companies offer flex time, it should be to ALL employees.

In my experience, employees with children often “get away with” much more - establishing flex hours up front, limiting overtime to emergencies. In my experience, single people need to be more assertive in saying, “I’m working from 7 - 4 now so it shortens my commute.” or “I’m sorry, I can’t stay late tonight.” And if given a bad time about it, pointing to the parents who have established the same rules and saying “they do it, you aren’t discrimating because I don’t have kids, are you?” Kids are a lovely way to put your foot down in these situations, but you can put your foot down without them.

Being childless is a perfectly honorable lifestyle. That said, people that raise children are doing an important service to our society: namely replenishing the workforce.

Well I think companies should offer flex time. It is not just for mothers and it is not just for children. It also benefits fathers, people with elderly parents in their charge and others with family obligations. I think it is for the good of our society that people are able to contribute to our world both as workers and as caretakers. Long ago, employment was mostly home-based (farms, inns, storekeeping) and the whole family worked. As time when on it morphed into the man-goes-away/woman-stays-home version we have been working with lately. The time has come for another model of employment, one that is good for families and employers.

I somewhat fancy Sweden’s (I think) child-leave system. You get something like nine months total off of work. The kicker is that each parent must take at least a third of the time in order to get the full amount, meaning daddy and mommy both have to take care of little kiddy.

I do believe it IS the company that offers Flex time. What I don’t think is that we should just let every company decide to do what they want. Without goverment mandates I doubt very much there would be minimum wages and 40 hour work weeks. “If you want to keep this job, you will work 60 hours a week, and no overtime pay for you”
Sometimes it is necessary to have mandates to make things fair. And this is why I started the discussion. I don’t think its fair.
Should we just let the company decide if they want to hire blacks, or gays or any other minority? I realize its not the same thing…no, but I feel if the company offers something to one group of people it needs to compensate for the other group. But realize that in this case the “childless” people are the minority. Should We also get paid less because we don’t have children to support?

>>Should We also get paid less because we don’t have children to support?

Well, in a sense you already do as you are paying taxes to support services for families with children. The government is taking money from you and transferring it to those with children. There’s another thread about this

Actually, I do think we should give private companies this freedom.
I’m not a big fan of forcing people to associate with people they don’t want to associate with.

There is a down side to every other freedom, I just see this as the seedy side of the right to assemble.

I don’t know what to say Freedom. You have shocked me. To me your statement seems very bigoted.

I also agree with you Sailor. Though I could not find the thread you refered to. I certainly am not happy to pay taxes for certain things. I do feel that educating our youth is something that we all should pay for, children or not. Letting parents make their own schedule at the expense of the childless; I don’t.

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
Date: 1661
:** a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices**

  • big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
  • big·ot·ed·ly adverb
    To me, my statement seems the very opposite of bigoted. I recogognize that the world is an imperfect place. I see no reason to try and mold everyone into acting the way I think is proper.
    There are extremes on both sides, but basically I’m talking about allowing situations in which both parties freely agree to be involved with each other. If that makes me a bigot, then so be it.

Otherwise, what’s the point of allowing free speech when you want every group to think and behave the same way?

  1. American society now has lots of laws restricting the freedom of employers to harmfully discriminate. Unfortunately, these laws also restrict employers from beneficially discriminating (such as allowing flex time only to those who need it most.)

  2. Amadeus’s ideas – that government-set minimum wages, hours, etc. are keys to worker protection – are not supported by the facts. E.g., in the US, most workers earn more than minimum wage. Supply and Demand have forced employers to pay more money.

  3. The US’s horrible history of slavery and Jim Crow is over-used as a basis for policy decisions. E.g., a few years ago, a very small Korean-owned business was cited for hiring mostly Koreans IIRC. This was in inappropriate restriction.

  4. Employment discrimination tends to be self-correcting. Quite a few years ago I hired an outstandingly capable employee, who happened to be gay. I later heard that a competitor had declined to hire him because of his sexual orientation. This was their loss and my company’s gain.

  5. Amamdeus looks at fariness from the employee’s POV. Also, one should consider fariness to the employer. (E.g., many regulations favor very large organizations over medium-sized ones.)

  6. Another POV on fairness is fairness to the economic well-being of society as a whole. When burdensome government regulation business less efficient, all of society is made that much poorer. (This difference can be enormous. E.g., compare the wealth of East Germany vs. West Germany, or Taiwan vs. the PRC.)

Actually, the US before labor laws had a very poor history of working conditions.

Considering minimum wage isn’t even a living wage…

Which is relative how?

Minimum wage was never MEANT to be a living wage.

I would challenge the assertion that a mandatory “living wage” could even exist.

No matter how you cut it, unemployment pays less than any minimum or living wage.
[sub]not including government subsidies of course…[/sub]

**

I don’t see why. If company A determines that most of the best employees will be married, or plan on being married in the future, then their benefits package will probably reflect that.

Some companies might offer a younger person without a family less because they can get away with it. Nothing wrong with that.

Marc

Well then, perhaps you should pay women less because they SHOULD have a husband making more money, and really should be at home cooking dinner and taking care of the kids.
:rolleyes:

Most labor laws have been enacted after the problems they sought to address had already been eliminated by the market.

For example, the last two minimum wage increases in the U.S. had almost no impact on the economy either way, because wages were almost universally already higher than the minimum.

Child Labor as a widespread practice ended decades before child labor laws were instituted. Except in cases where the children had to work to survive (like on poor rural farms), in which case they continued to work whether the law technically allowed them to or not.

Minimum wages are a perfect example of a compassionate-sounding idea that is either useless or detrimental to the poor. If a person’s labor is only worth $4 per hour, and the government passes a law saying that employers must pay $6 per hour, then they simply won’t hire that person. In this way, minimum wages act as a barrier to entry into the workforce for the poorest and least educated among us. If they are already making more than that, it has no effect. Minimum wages only have a small beneficial effect to the small number of people in the margins - those people that are worth more than they are being paid, but work in small, niche markets where there is little competitive pressure and/or some other kind of market failure.

The U.S. hasn’t seen drastic market effects from government minimum wage manipulation simply because the wage is already so low that small changes to it have little to no impact. But look at other countries that have much higher minimum wages - what typically happens is that unemployment spikes, then the government steps in and starts subsidizing companies that hire these workers through training supplements, bonuses, etc. The end result is little more than welfare. And that causes all kinds of curious distortions that hurt poor people - like, people can’t afford to move up, because no one will hire them unless they are subsidized. So these people wind up being stuck where they are with no job mobility, the companies suffer under endless red tape, and the government uses the fact that it’s paying companies a subsidy to justify meddling in the company’s affairs.

The other problem with minimum wages is that they take resiliency out of the market in bad times. Normally, if the economy or a market goes into recession, a company has the option of rolling back wages in order to survive. If worker productivity declines, then workers aren’t worth as much. But if your workers are already at the minumum wage and their productivity declines further, you have no alternatives but to fire them. Thus minimum wage laws cause unemployment to spike when times get tough, which puts a stress on social programs and government budgets.

The minumum wage should be abolished.

I think I’ll have to agree. The scenario is a grim one.
:shudders:
Oh, and for the record, I have never worked at company that had flex-time, Nor would I necessarily look for one. My only point in this dicussion is that it is discrimantory to give certain privilges to only a select group.

And I’m not talking about unmarried people, I’m talking about childless people. There are married couples who choose not to have kids you know. (or can’t)

Speaking as a childless woman…

I’ve worked for companies with flex time, and while it was also extended to me, it was intended for women with kids. (I work in a vastly female profession and a lot of us have kids.)

This meant women with kids got first dibs on flexible schedules. Since someone has to be there to mind the store, those of us without kids got the standard 8-5 schedule. It made it hard for us to take classes, do most kinds of volunteering, or do most extracurricular activities. Meanwhile, the women with kids were working 7-4 or 7-3:30 so they could be home when their kids got home. Yet, many of them had to ask for time off for school holidays (daycare issues), school conferences, etc. Their kids get the sniffles, they stayed home. They get the flu, they came to work sick because they used up their sick time on their kids’ illnesses.

I think one solution could be 40 hours’ “community time”. Parents could use it for their kids’ activities and childless people could use it for volunteering, personal enrichment, etc. Or those who choose not to use it could be compensated for an extra week’s pay.

I don’t think flex time is a bad thing. I do think that parents shouldn’t be given preferential treatment (leaving the rest of us to do the work), nor do I think it should ONLY be given to parents. There are some instances where it is appropriate for a childless person to take flex time (for example, taking care of an elderly or disabled parent or spouse; taking classes, etc.), and they should not be dissuaded from doing so merely because they don’t have kids.

Robin

[quote]
Most labor laws have been enacted after the problems they sought to address had already been eliminated by the market.

::: snip :::

Child Labor as a widespread practice ended decades before child labor laws were instituted. Except in cases where the children had to work to survive (like on poor rural farms), in which case they continued to work whether the law technically allowed them to or not.

Minimum wages are a perfect example of a compassionate-sounding idea that is either useless or detrimental to the poor. If a person’s labor is only worth $4 per hour, and the government passes a law saying that employers must pay $6 per hour, then they simply won’t hire that person. In this way, minimum wages act as a barrier to entry into the workforce for the poorest and least educated among us. If they are already making more than that, it has no effect.

[quote]

I’d like to see some references to support the idea that child labor laws were all passed after the problem had passed.

As to minimum wage, I am not a proponent of it, however, I worked as a manager for a company who made a big deal about the point that they would simply choose to not hire people if the minimum wage went up–and I know that that was pure political propaganda. They hired at 5 cents over minimum wage and made a nice profit and when the minimum wage was “artificially” raised, they raised their base rate to the minimum and continued to make a profit. It was a retail industry that needed a minimum number of workers to stay open, and they had no trouble “choosing” to stay open, regardless of the minimum wage.