Actually I don’t think you have to respect someone to give them common courtesy. I am polite to most people no matter how I may dislike them. Everyone I’ve met has had to earn my respect before I give it but just because I don’t respect them that doesn’t mean I’m impolite.
Life is an exotic and sonorous nightmare, in which reason does not always play a role… - Exerpted from V:tM
Dreams die hard and we hold them in our hands long after they have turned to dust. - Bowen in Dragonheart
Human beings can always be relied upon to assert, with vigor, their god-given right to be stupid. - Seize the Night by Dean Koontz
You know why people call something impossible? Because it hasn't happened yet. - Robin Williams in What Dreams May Come
I wonder how much of old peoples goofyness comes from being treated like they are. Imagine having someone wipe your ass, mash up your food, talk down to you…especially since you’ve have 80 some years of life experience and pride. Imagine dying everyday, just to wake up the next day and do it again. How lonely and pathetic a person must feel. After you have done all this see if you ain’t a little crazy. And really, where’s the demographic that says old people are dangerous on the road. Seems to me the insurance rates for boys 16-24 are really high for a reason.
There is, I think, a confusion over the difference between courtesy and respect. All of us, I hope, deserve to be treated and should treat others with courtesy. Respect, however, is earned.
People significantly older than me get treated with courtesy and deference. If an 80 year old man wants to maunder on about his service in WWII, I will listen politely, because dammit, his service is one of the reasons I got to grow up free and healthy. If an 80 year old man wants to maunder on about his bowel movements, I’ll politely change the subject or find somewhere else to be.
One of the reasons I feel so strongly about this is because I’ve taken the time to find out a little bit about my older relatives and ancestors. And you know, all the things that I think make me such hot shit . . . they don’t even begin to measure up to what they went through.
The Depression. World War II. World War I. The Flu Pandemic. Go a little further back, and I have a great grandfather who fought off Indian attacks to protect his mother and siblings. His father fought in the Civil War. No one knows where he’s buried. A great grandmother helped raise 17 children - her own and her stepchildren.
And I whine when I don’t have enough fun money at the end of a pay period to buy a CD.
So you know, if you can’t manage a little respect, at least dredge up some courtesy. You and I wouldn’t necessarily be here if it weren’t for what these people did - even if it was nothing more impressive than just surviving.
I have a simple rule, and that is that I while I don’t discriminate against people for their age/race/disability/whatever, I also don’t discriminate in favor of people for having those qualities. An asshole in a wheelchair is still an asshole, and an 80-year-old asshole is still an asshole.
While I generally open up contact with another person courteously, I only continue being courteous to a person if they reciprocate. I don’t really care if you did something amazing 50 years ago, or last week, or whenever. It doesn’t grant you the right to be an asshole to me, and I will treat a 70-year-old with as much courtesey as I would someone my own age. Which is none if they decide not to be courteous to me.
‘Just survivng’? Oh wow, that guy isn’t dead. Let me fall down at his feet and worship him, and ignore the fact that he’s interfering with my life. Sorry, Phouka, but if some eldery man starts telling me that I’m evil because I choose not to have kids, or that I should join the church, or any of the other things people like to lecture me about he’s going to get the same response that a 20-year-old or a 30-year-old doing the same thing will get. (Something ranging from ‘MYOB’ to ‘GFY’ depending on the circumstances).
Kevin Allegood,
“At least one could get something through Trotsky’s skull.”
I dont respect anyone who isint nice to me. Otherwise i respect them.
The only real driving accidents come from breaking the law, no matter how bad a driver you are Take Pakistan for example, there are no driving laws you just hope you get home safely.
and it would be low testosterone levels not high ones
Fact is, finding the will to get up and face the world day after day for fifty years is probably one of the hardest things in the world to do. “Just surviving” takes stamina.
I have to disagree. For one thing, if you take this view you almost have to take the corrolary to be true as well–that it dosen’t matter what horrible things person did fifty years ago or last week, it dosen’t grant you the right to be an asshole to them. To treat people only in terms of their interactions with you personally, to refuse to consider that they might have a larger existance outside of that relationship, is frankly adolecent.
The problem is that someone has to be the first to extend that courtesy. I tend to think that youth has this responsibility. DOn’t worry, you’ll get your turn.
I tend to feel that the elderly deserve a great deal of respect. The older I get, the wiser the people older than me seem (collectivly. There are plenty of exceptions on the individual level). Even as a young adult I look back at what stuff I thought as an adolecent, and it boggles the mind. There seems to me to be every reason to believe that this trend will continue. This dosen’t mean that I am going to accept beliefs and worldviews blindly from people just because they are older, but I have learned to listen very carefully when people decades older than me descibe things that experence has taught them about the way things work.
I imagine that the elderly react to everyone the same way I react to teenagers: I see them struggleing to find there own answers to questions that I worked so hard over, and which I have hammered out what I think are pretty good, useful answers. I am so proud of myself, and I sweated and hurt so much before I figured out, say, that going to class regularly makes all the difference; but you try to tell this to a kid, and it is just wasted. They have to find their own way. But the smart ones listen a little, and I think it makes life a little smoother than it might be for them.
The main reason I am all for giving the elderly a lot of respect is that I plan on being elderly myself one day and I plan to enjoy the hell out of it. I am going to carry a cane and beat people’s knees with it when their attention wanders. I am going to order just desert while everyone else eats dinner. I am going to start smoking again. (At 80. I couldn’t face the thought of quiting forever). Everytime I hear the words “Grandma, you’re embaressing me”, I am going to give myself another point. I am not going to worry about my looks–I’ll have grown into them. I am not going to suffer fools. If anybody wants to give me shit about it, fine–I’ll have twenty, forty, sixty years worth of experience on them and will be able to give it right back with much more flair and style than the whippersnappers can come up with. The problem with all this is that I can not fuufill my dream of being “crochety” if society has labled the elderly as “pitiful”.
I really don’t like our youth-obsessed culture. When I was in High school, people would say “These are the best years of your life. Enjoy them.” Even then, the idea horrified me. Luckily, those people have already turned out to be wrong, but maybe it was true for them–can you imagene spending the last three-fourths of your life in a steady decline?
The reason I’m asking is, that I’ve noticed more prevalent in the South, is a more courteous air towards the elderly. ** I’m not talking about elderly drivers, just older people as a group **.
I’ve seen people push past others in the store, and slow when they see someone shuffling with a cane, or some kind of support. Quick to help with the door, and with packages, even.
I had much the same experience that you did, coming upon a driver that was going less than the posted 45 speed limit (and I rolled my eyes, thinking, ANOTHER thirty seconds off my life!) And then I get up close enough and see the handicapped license AND the purple heart insignia. And I feel instantly ashamed of myself.
Yes, you ought to judge people by their behavior and not their looks, sex, religion or whatever, and there are plenty of grouchy old people, just like there are young grouches!
But, whether it’s my southern heritage, or the fact I’m forty six, and staring down the road looking for my own walker!! It’s just an extra kindness to take into account someone’s age and backing off a tad if they look like they are someone’s grandmother.
That’s interesting - are you saying that the millions of people over 50 in the United States alone have all done one of the hardest things in the world to do? You’d think one of them would have done one of the less-hard things like cure cancer by now.
How does this scale of ‘just survivng’ work? If someone lives to be 60, but is on their own private mansion with everything they want for their entire life, is that one of the hardest things anyone in the world to do? What if someone lives to be 30, but does it despite suffering through extreme poverty and major mental illness? Do we respect the 60-year-old playboy for just survivng, but not the 30-year-old?
Unless you’re talking about high crimes (ie I wouldn’t feel any obligation for courtesy to Uncle Joe if he was around today) or actions someone has taken that affect me personally, I certainly do take the corollary to be true. If Fred used racist terms back in the 50’s, I really don’t give a rat’s ass unless he’s using them now.
I ‘consider’ that someone might have a larger existance outside of their interaction with me (in fact, it’s universally true), I just don’t ‘consider’ it relevant if they’re not behaving courteously to me. If treating people on the basis of their actions is adolescent, then I hope I’m always adolescent.
Creative dropping of context, eh? Remember that I said:
Maybe your memory is fading with age…
I disagree. I think that everyone has that responsibility, and I don’t think that you get some kind of free ride for being older than someone else. You see, I don’t believe in age discrimination.
I’m not really interested in what you ‘feel’ or how things ‘seem’ to you. Do you have any objective facts to refute the observation that the older people get, the more prone they are to neurological dysfunction (everything from simple senility to Alzhimer’s disease)?
Which is why I always treat people as individuals whether it is in their favor or not.
I look at the simple statistical fact that 50% of people are of below average intelligence, and conclude that taking advice from random people is a bad bet.
Yes, like people who tell you that you have to go to college to get a good job (untrue), that you have to get married by 20 to be happy (untrue), that you have to have children RIGHT NOW to have any hope of a fulfilling life (untrue), that you have to believe in some particular religion to be happy (untrue), that hiring ‘niggers’ will make you lose money (untrue) or any of the other unsolicited advice that idiots of all ages attempt to foster onto you. Very often, such ‘advice from experience’ is really a desperate attempt at validating bad decisions by convincing someone else that those decisions are the only good decisions someone can make.
Listening to idiots who think that ‘have a baybee’ is the answer for everyone is a good way to ruin your life. It doesn’t matter whether the idiots are 10, 20, 30, 60, 70, or 80 - they’re still idiots. Listening to idiotic preachers who want to tell you to follow some religious scam is idiotic whether they’re a 30-year old or 60-year old.
Quite frankly, if I wanted someone’s advice or opinion on my life I would have asked for it. If you start rambling on with unsolicited ‘advice’, I’ll give you my ‘advice’ right back.
So your justification for ‘why should I not treat an asshole like an asshole just because they’re old’ is ‘because Mandy Jo plans to be an asshole when she’s old’?
If some elderly person tries that trick on me, I’ll take that cane out of their wrinkled hands and press charges. I certainly don’t think people get some sort of ‘assault people free’ card for being old.
Ahh… but I don’t see any reason to wait for that until I’m old. Why should I suffer old fools? They’re fools like any other.
Your problem, then, seems to be that you’re basing your goals on societal acceptance. Maybe one day when you’re more mature you’ll no longer need to seek the approval of the herd for self-validification. I really couldn’t imagine living to a ripe old age while still keeping that adolescent obession with meeting societal expectations.
You see, I also plan to be crotchety and long-winded when I’m old. I just don’t plan to lose any sleep over whether people consider tha
Curing cancer is technical. Getting up every day is like digging ditches–not sophisticated, just a struggle. And I think people who dig ditches for years are pretty impressive. I think most people are pretty neat, truth to tell. I mean, yes, lots are idiots, but that is not such a big deal. Idiots have a unique way of looking at the world that I don’t want to adopt, but the understanding of which is useful both in dealing with other idiots and avioding idiocy yourself. Plus, everybody has good stories to tell, if you are patient; everybody has done something incredible.
What if he is using them now, but not to you? I mean, if you know a guy, and he has always been cool to you, but you know he has a bad habit of “borrowing” other people’s CDs at parties, but not yours, would that make any difference in the way you saw him? What if he was always cool to you and your buddies, but he had a bad habit of sleeping with underage girls? The fact is, it is adolecent to say “Well, that isn’t my life, I treat people how they treat me” because it is a refusal to acknowledge that we live in society, benefit from a society, and that part of the way that society functions is by
subtle social sanctions or approval: that is, a guy is never going to stop stealing CDs because the law says to, but he likely will if it costs him all his friends. In the same way, if we don’t reward heros, we won’t have any new ones–what is the point of self-sacrifice if no one is ever gong to care?
I am not going to bother to cut and paste your next comment, but you are right, I did quote you out of context. I apoliogize–on the reread I waas scanning and it jumped out, and I was not as careful as I should have been. At the same time, I will say that you seem to have a pretty low opinion of people in general; If you get hostile or even non-friendly reactions from people regularly, it seems entirely possible that you are showing more of this opinon than you realize and that people are reacting to it. If you do not get a negitive reaction from most people, then forget I said anything. I only mention it because I have a friend who didn’t understand why the cops always got angry with him–his words were polite. This was true, but his tone and stance bristled with hostility, and the cops reacted to it, refusing to treat politely any one that treated them so rudely.
I never said that taking a random sample and following it blindly was a good idea. What I meant and obviously did not convey was that being dependent exclusivly on one’s peers for views about the world is a bad idea. And don’t spout off any BS about not getting your views from anywhere but yourself. All of our views come from other people. We each select the view we are going to endorse from some synthisis of the views we have been exposed to, and as such we are all ultimitly responsible for what we believe, but we cannot trancend more than a few steps beyond what we have been exposed to. In today’s culture people are squished into demographic groups–I know many people, especially teenagers and young adults, who have no signifigant relationships with anyone more than four years older or four years younger than themselves. I think that this pattern is a real diservice for everyone involved–the views of people who have seen a different world, been through different things, adds depth to a worldview.
Sure. And it’s a judgement call each time. But even listening to someone “validate bad judgements” can teach you a hell of a lot, but not if you stop listening after the first thing that puts your back up.
So you are going to reinvent the wheel every time? How boring. And the fact is, we don’t always know when we need advice–if you don’t let anybody tell you anything unless you ask for it, everyone who knows you is going to have to bite thier lips and watch you metaphorically crash many times over the years.
I was trying to be funny. Sometimes it dosen’t work.
Because right now that fool may be my boss, and my responsibility to support myself is greater than my responsibility to not let people get away with shit. Because that fool might be the lover of a friend, and my responsibility to her is also greater. Because that fool might be a cop, and I can’t afford a ticket. Because that fool might be my mother, and she’s been through enough, I owe her one. By the time I am old my income will hopefully (oh, lord, please.) be independent, and I will have what I need–I won’t be striving for anything external anymore (By the time you retire, you pretty much know the SES you are going to be in and have made your peace with it) and no one can stand between me and any goal. Whole 'nother ballpark.
It is not “societal acceptance” that is the problem–it is the expectations. If society expects you to be a certain way because of it’s expectations, almost everything you do will be seen to reinforce that expectation, no matter how contrary. In any case, battling societal expectations is tiring, and I don’t want to have to do it when I am old. I freely admit that I do not ever want to be thought of as “pitiful”; this is no more “following the herd” than a black youth not liking it when two white girls switch their purses to the side away from him when he walks by.
Lastly, I just wanted to add that you are the one that seems to be socially sensitive, not me. I don’t care if some idiot, young or old, is rude or foolish to me. Who gives a damn? I can talk to them, learn from them, take what I like, identify what I don’t like, and walk away. If I get called names or have insulting observations made
Somehow, I don’t feel impressed by the alleged difficulty of something that millions of people seem quite capable of doing. And this seems to be your ONLY reason for saying that old people should recieve special treatment, as you’ve given no other reasons why someone should treat older people differently than younger people. “Ohh, they didn’t kill themselves” just doesn’t work as a justification for special treatment for people.
Which is why I treat each one of them as an individual and don’t discriminate against them on the basis of characteristics beyond their control.
If you enjoy listening to idiots ramble on about pointless nonsense, I have no objection to your doing so. The fact that you enjoy listening to the same tired nonsense over and over again doesn’t spark the least bit of interest in me. Also, you’ve slipped up and advocated treating everyone the same way, instead of advocating special treatment for old people.
If I’m at the store at 6 picking up food for friends that are coming over at 7, I really have no desire to be patient and listen to idiots blather on about their idiocy.
It appears that you’re agreeing with me, and saying that I should treat people on the basis of their actions. To reference the main topic again, are you saying that I should treat a young person who steals CDs differently than an old person who steals CDs? Also, I’m not really concerned by your classifying a viewpoint I never advocated as ‘adolescent’; while I may choose not to associate with the person, there is no need for me to drop basic courtesey in doing so. A simple “I don’t want to hang around with you anymore because [reason]” does not involve being discourteous to anyone (and so is consistent with my earlier position), yet does not fall into the trap you’ve laid out above.
Finally, your acting in an asinine manner would actually counter your alleged goal of prompting the guy to stop stealing; he’d simply write you off as a random asshole and hang out with other people. If you would show some basic courtesey and simply tell him that you don’t wish to associate with him because of what he does, he would at least know specifically why you’re not being his friend.
This is a complete non-sequitor. The fact that I advocate treating assholes as assholes regardless of their age has nothing to do with rewarding people for their actions, unless you believe that the only reward anyone can recieve is a ‘get out of being dealt with on the basis of your actions’ card.
Why, because I don’t care to spend every waking moment politely listening to every raving lunatic that wants to tell me how to live my life?
I don’t care to forget it, as it drives my point home. I don’t generally have a problem with people because, as I said several times, I generally treat people courteously until they give me a reason to do otherwise. I occasionally run into assholes, and responding to their asinine behavior gets them to stop bothering me about 90% of the time.
So he wasn’t courteous to the police, and they responded unfavorably to him on the basis of his actions. Gee, sounds like the police are doing just what I’m advocating doing. Do you think that the cops should have reacted differently if a 60-year old did exactly what your friend did?
Yes, you did. You said that the advice of older people was always worthwhile, when ‘advice from older people’ is just taking a random sample of advice.
So what does this have to do with the topic of according special treatment to people on the basis of their age?
This is obviously untrue, if all of our views come from other people we would never have been able to progress from the views of cavemen.
In other words, people build their views on a combination of what their hear from other people, observations of the world around them, and their own ideas. I don’t know what relevance it has to according special treatment on the basis of age.
I don’t see what this has to do with according special treatment to older people. The fact that teenagers tend to hang out with other teenagers isn’t especially suprising, although it is suprising that you know so many who have no significant relationship with their parents.
You’re either stating things that ascribe a position to me that directly contradicts what I earlier stated, or you’re just making a word salad and not really saying anything. I already stated that I treat all people with courtesey unless they give me a reason not to, and that I make no exception to this for elderly people (or any other arbitrary group). Please, explain this bit about ‘angst’ and tell us all (use a quote here) exactly were I said that I don’t respect old people.
I love the way you guys can come up with all of these bizzare extrapolations from a MB post. Apparently I must not be able to deal with anyone over the age of 50, despite the fact that I have a few friends in that age bracket and have had many pleasant conversations with people from 16-75 when I happen to encounter them during the day.
Kevin Allegood,
“At least one could get something through Trotsky’s skull.”
"Yes, like people who tell you that you have to go to college to get a good job(untrue), that you have to get married by 20 to be happy (untrue), that you have to have children RIGHT NOW to have any hope of a fulfilling life (untrue),that you have to believe in some particular religion to be happy (untrue), that hiring ‘niggers’ will make you lose money (untrue) or any of the other unsolicited advice that idiots of all ages attempt to foster onto you. Very often, such ‘advice from experience’ is really a desperate attempt at validating bad decisions by convincing someone else that those decisions are the only good decisions someone can make.
Listening to idiots who think that ‘have a baybee’ is the answer for everyone is a good way to ruin your life. It doesn’t matter whether the idiots are 10, 20, 30,60, 70, or 80 - they’re still idiots. Listening to idiotic preachers who want to tell you to follow some religious scam is idiotic whether they’re a 30-year old or 60-year old.
Quite frankly, if I wanted someone’s advice or opinion on my life I would have asked for it. If you start rambling on with unsolicited ‘advice’, I’ll give you my ‘advice’ right back.
"So your justification for ‘why should I not treat an asshole like an asshole just because they’re old’ is ‘because Mandy Jo plans to be an asshole when she’s old’?
If some elderly person tries that trick on me, I’ll take that cane out of their wrinkled hands and press charges. I certainly don’t think people get some sort of ‘assault people free’ card for being old."
All this sounds like personal experience. It also sounds like you have a bug up you ass. You need to relax, they’re harmless, and it costs you nothing to listen to them…even if they’re wrong.
Don’t give any crap about, “I treat everyone like they treat me”. If you’re introduced to someone you automatically make snap judgements and there’s nothing you can do about it. Those snap judgements affect your first impression which goes a long way. If you do have a problem listening to old people you are less likely to have patience with them…and not giving them due respect.
Due to the nature of my work (I’m a former ICU nurse, now a home health nurse, who works almost exclusively with Medicare patients), I associate with old people eight to ten hours every day.
Do I respect them? Sure. I respect all of my patients and treat them kindly, no matter how demented they are. I respect them because they’re fellow human beings and because they are my patients; I’m not sure if I respect them simply because they’re old.
I’ve been pondering this question for days. Why should we respect old people for being old, or should we respect them based simply on this factor?
Yes, elderly people have experienced things I can’t even imagine; many have fought in wars to defend my freedoms; others have faced terrible discrimination and persevered in spite of it all. Still, most of my patients are incontinent, forgetful to the point of not being able to care for themselves, whiny, greedy little bastards. As an anecdotal example, one diabetic lady had been receiving free insulin syringes from a nurse; when she ran out and I ordered more syringes for her, she had to pay for them. My god, she was furious. How DARE she have to pay for her own syringes! She was OLD and she should get FREE syringes!
I love old people. I love young people, too, but I have an irrational soft spot in my heart for old people, the same way some people just love babies. To me, they are cute as bugs. Both “types” of people have different “good” qualities. I can learn a lot from any person I meet.
Question: how deserving is Ronald Reagan of respect, today? He was president, he was an important man. Today, he doesn’t even remember ever being president. As a result of his disease, he is a completely different person. Who is he? Is he still Ronald Reagan, or is he someone else?
The personality is malleable. If I live to be ninety years old and am constantly soiling my britches and slobbering applesauce down my chin, and have lost my normally benevolent spirit ( :)) and transformed into a demanding, vicious, hateful old woman, am I still deserving of the same amount of respect?
I’m going to address each of your quoted bits to me. Each of the bits below was orignally said by me, and offered by you as proof that I have something against the elderly:
The statements are all idiotic statements, and have been made to me by morons of all ages. Nothing in that statement points to anything against old people, just against idiots of all ages.
Again, my only dislike is of idiots and not of the elderly. Really, this was a pretty bad quote you picked since I said several times that the age of the idiots doesn’t matter.
Again, nothing against the elderly, just against idiots who try to give me moronic, unwanted ‘advice’.
Yet again, nothing against old people, just against Mandy Jo’s plans (now shown to be made in jest) to become asinine in her old age.
Again, nothing against old people, just against people who assault other people. I really see nothing wrong with being opposed to the initiation of force.
(Now the quotes are Occam’s)
All this?!?!? One of your examples was only about Mandy Jo’s plans, and another one was a response to a hypothetical she proposed. Yes, I have had morons try to give me ‘advice’ in a wide variety of situations, but the majority of them are actually younger.
LOL. So anyone who doesn’t believe that one person should be allowed to beat another person with a stick on a whim has a bug up their ass? Sorry, but I don’t consider being opposed to assault and battery as ‘having a bug up my ass’. Would you mind if I took a cane and started beating your knees? If you would, then you have a bug up your ass and should really relax.
It costs me time and displeasure. If time and displeasure are worth nothing, then the time and displeasure they have to endure listening to my response costs them nothing either, so you have no basis to complain.
It’s the simple and unvarnished truth. The only explanation for your constant claim that I’m lying that I can come up with is that you are incapable of treating people in general with common courtesey, and that you’re projecting this failure onto me. You do seem to have a lot of ‘angst’ about this, perhaps you even have a bug up your ass about it.
Yes there is, oh great font of knowledge. You can ignore snap judgements and listen to what the person says and observe what they do rather than living your life based on snap judgements. Perhaps you go around responding to people on the basis of the first thing that pops into your head when you see them, but I long ago made a conscious decision not to do so.
So now you know more about my mind than I do? Maybe you should talk to Randi about claiming the big bucks for demonstrating telepathy. My first impressions of people tend to go for 5-15 minutes of conversation, then I get more of a picture of the person. I really can’t help it if you’re ruled by first impressions, but it’s a failing of yours, not of mine.
I wonder if you do have a problem with your reading comprehension. I’ve told you over and over that I have no problem with old people, but I do have a problem with idiots. You’ve offered as ‘examples’ places where I’ve discussed my dislike of idiots of all ages, and attempted to claim that it somehow means I’ve got something against the elderly. As I said before, please provide an example of me saying something that demonstrates that I have a problem with older people. If you fail to do so, I’m going to have to write you off as a troll because you’re obviously just making up ‘facts’ to support your position.
Respect is earned, and simply not being dead doesn’t earn anyone respect in my book, so everyone gets the respect they’re due from me. Of course, respect doesn’t really have that much to do with courtesy, but people often pretend that they are the same thing. I don’t have patience for the kind of people who discard common courtesey, but that’s based on actions and not age.
Kevin Allegood,
“At least one could get something through Trotsky’s skull.”
