I cannot recommend BarkBusters strongly enough. If you go this route, you will be put into contact with a local BarkBusters-certified trainer in your area. Speak directly with this person about the Chow. Some trainers won’t work with Chows; see also Pappsett’s comments.
I have a 60-pound pitbull with a mouthing problem that is in the process of being solved with the help of my BarkBusters training, who is worth her weight in kibble. All of your dogs could benefit from training and you can get a multi-dog discount.
Just wanted to add: any thread in the known universe that concerns aggression in dogs will sooner or later attract people who have a gigantic hate on for Cesar Milan.
It’s boring, okay? He’s not a god, his techniques are often taken out of context, exaggerated, misinterpreted, he’s obnoxious in a marketing/promoting himself way, and he has helped thousands of people save their dogs which were on the edge of being euthanized.
I’m not a disciple, but I’ve found his philosophy and understanding to be sound. I also think behavior mod is the royal road to specific behavior changes. Cesar is about relationships, not training. The two don’t conflict, they complement.
And yeah, if you have a big, aggressive dog and an uncertain relationship with him, don’t grab him by the face and glare at him unless you want to risk the chance of your nose being taken off. Duh.
I not only recommend a trainer, but a behaviorist as well. There are veterinarians with specialist training and trainers who deal specifically with behavioral issues.
My take on Cesar Milan: Got the right idea, but this alpha roll thing is dangerous unless you are Cesar Milan. I think the split on opinions about him is because not everyone really thinks through the dominance theory unless you have a dominant or aggressive dog (one one who’s both). BarkBusters does teach the humans to be the leader and it’s all voice control, positive reinforcement, behavioral mod stuff. All humane, all gentle, no “hands on” techniques. I see how my dog has relaxed since I learned how to be a better leader to her. BarkBusters has helped me learn to think like a dog.
So, some of those ways I taught the dog who’s in charge:
• On walks, she has to heel.
•If she won’t heel, we do attentiveness training to get her attention focused on the person on the other end of the leash. Attentiveness is holding the leash end at your chest and take a couple steps. When the dog steps ahead of you, or out of line in any way, you abruptly change directions. You may only get another step or two before you have to change direction again. After a few minutes of walking in circles and zigzagging, the dog learns it can’t get anywhere unless it’s focused on paying attention to where you are leading it. Presto, now the dog will heel.
• The dog has to sit and stay before being allowed to go through the front or back doors. If she’s not following me through the house, she’s not allowed to go through a doorway first. She has to sit-stay until I release her to follow me.
• She has to sit-stay before eating. I put the bowl down, talk to her for a minute, then release. I eat my meals, then I put food down for the critters. Alpha eats first.
So what’s working for my pitbull is not so much showing dominance over the dog, but showing her leadership so she can relax and be a dog. I had a contractor in my house yesterday – big guy with a booming voice and wearing a hat (dogs hate hats). Dog was in her crate, safely, but still growled at the guy. I gave her a vocal correction and she did it again. So I moved to stand so my body was between her and the man. She shut right up. See, that’s what the alpha will do to protect a puppy – put its body between the puppy and the threat. So I did what alpha dog would do and moved in front of my dog, between her and the threat. She settled right down and was a perfect angel after that.
And I refuse to believe Cesar Milan has never taken a face full of pitbull teeth. I do believe they probably edit those bits out before airing the show.
Well, I love dogs, have three, and have fostered at least thirty. Not many dogs have aggressive personalities like the OP’s has. Tons of good, safe dogs are killed every day for no reason other than there are not enough homes for all the dog. Why does this dangerous dog deserve to live while those others die? Why is it “extreme” to put down a dog because it is a danger to the people it comes in contact with, but not extreme to put down a dog because there isn’t room for it?
This is not just a training issue. Untrained dogs do not usually act like this. This is a personality issue that is going to require constant vigilance on the owner’s part for the rest of the dog’s life, and even then the dog might well hurt someone. The owner is putting him/herself at risk of being sued by keeping a dangerous dog. You really think it is extreme to put this dog down and adopt a different, mentally stable dog who is otherwise likely to die in a pound?
If the dog were *my *responsibility (which would never be the case), I’d have it killed in a heartbeat, because I wouldn’t care what happened to it. But this dog is obbn’s pet, and presumably he loves it, views it as something worth keeping, and is nicer than me. Killing it without at least trying to effect a change in its behavior is an injustice to himself.
ETA: And in fact, even for me, having it killed in a heartbeat is too much. I’d try to do something to correct its behavior before I reached that point.
Okay, one last post, then I am really going away, I mean it this time.
I have a whole fat expensive set of Cesar Milan training videos. There are no ‘alpha wolf rollovers’ in it. Zero. I think that was a big thing like 20 years ago.
Really, don’t punish a dog for growling, because ‘growling is bad’. Growling is just the dog communicating something. It could be, “I’m testing out moving up in the pecking order – above YOU.” That would merit a different response than, “I’m worried and scared and I don’t see a way out.”
Dogs who are punished for growling often learn to be silent until they feel they HAVE to react. You just turned off the early-warning system.
Plus, punishing as a way to extinguish behavior is only smart when it is A. something very specific you never, ever, under any circumstances want the dog to do again, like chasing cars, and B. can be set up such that the dog does not associate anything, including you, with the punishment except the behavior that elicited it, and C. is impressive enough that it only has to be done once.
Otherwise, punishing is just an instinctive human emotional response that will always add unwanted baggage (like mistrust!) to your relationship and is almost never as effective as other proven techniques, like ignoring, rewarding incompatible behavior, etc.
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OK, fair enough. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be emotionally difficult to have the dog put down. I love my pets, too, but if they started acting aggressively toward anyone in my family, they’re gone. It would suck, but not as bad as being sued over or living with the guilt of having my dog rip some kid’s face up because I wasn’t paying close enough attention one day.
Obviously, of obbn feels like this dog is worth that risk, that’s his decision and he should get professional help training the dog. But he needs to be prepared for what can happen if the training doesn’t work perfectly.
I’m just offering my perspective on what I would do in that situation, as someone who also loves dogs a lot. As much as I love each of my girls, I’d put them down if I felt they weren’t safe.
Another vote for a good trainer/behaviourist (they are not mutually exclusive terms.) Whoever suggested obedience classes for all three dogs - right on! Two dogs is two dogs. Three dogs is a pack. You have two older untrained dogs, and you’ve added a puppy - now you have a pack of untrained dogs. Problems are inevitable. Dogs don’t “learn” aggressive behaviour from each other - but have you thought about what you’re going to do when your male Dane hits maturity in a house with an aggressive adult male dog, and another small adult male dog? Dog-aggression is usually directed towards dogs of the same sex. Of course your Dane is friendly - he’s a puppy! Aggression towards other dogs and aggression towards humans spring from a different place for the vast majority of dogs, generally speaking.
Aggression towards random people/strangers is not always “protectiveness” it is more often based on a lack of confidence. And an aggressive dog who is acting “protective” towards harmelss people but cannot be controlled or told to knock it off by the owners is indeed in need of training, big time. Well, both owners and dog. If he won’t listen, and shoes aggression to an owner, that owner is most surely not the “alpha male”, because if he was, he’d be able to control the dog.
Neutering doesn’t usually have much of an effect on aggression towards people or general tractibility. If done early enough, it may affect dog-to-dog-aggression, but once that’s a learned behaviour, probably not.
This dog does not need to be killed. This dog was not properly trained and socialized by it’s owners, hence the behaviour, but that can be fixed. Find a good trainer! You can’t get help for this online.
I’ve owned Rottweilers for 27 years, fostered many dogs, mostly pit bull mixes, and have put working titles and championship titles on dogs - not a professional but do know a bit about raising, training and managing multiple-dog households and dealing with high-drive dogs. I have a Labrador male, a young male Rottweiler, a JRT x cattle dog bitch, and a pit bull foster dog in my house now. It’s a lot of work. I know this isn’t a panacea and it won’t fix what’s going on with your dogs - but google NILIF. It will help.
This is true - but in this instance, chances are good that the OP failed the dog by getting it at 6 weeks old and never properly socializing and training it, and thus turning it into the dog it is now. The vast majority of dogs will turn out just fine, as long as they’re properly raised. Someone who gets a Chow/AS cross should have been aware of the breed traits, and should have done extensive work with the dog right from day one. Seems like this wasn’t done - it’s not the fault of the dog, but the fault of the owner.
I go places with my Rottweilers and have people telling me all the time how they want one, but I tell them it took a fuck-ton of work and classes to get my dog to be well-behaved! Some breeds are typically compliant and laid-back, some aren’t. Chows and Aussies are typically aloof, maybe aggressive and hard-to-train breeds. Someone who gets a 6-week-old puppy of that mix and expects it to train itself clearly has done the pup a disservice.
So really, he should at least make a good-faith effort to try fixing the situation he created, and kudos for him for realising this. FWIW, I have owned two dogs - one extremely dominant, one fear-aggressive - that I got as adults and kept until their natural deaths without any incident. And both were fabulous dogs. Yes it took a bit of work but you don’t learn anything from the really easy dogs - you can, however, learn a LOT from the challenging ones.
Also I agree with pretty much everything Ulfreida said.
Hello Everyone Again,
Thanks for the advice, you have given us a lot of things to think about. I would like to take a moment to clear up a few things. Our Pom is actually a very well trained and behaved dog. He does have a bad habit of occasionally trying to wander, but it isn’t a constant battle with him. He listens to commands very well and if we tell him to stop doing something he stops immediately.
Our Chow is a very loving dog and I truly think the behavior he is displaying is more indicative of the breed vs. lack of training. We have done the best we know how attempting to train him and I really think that his aggressiveness isn’t due to him being plain mean, but rather a natural desire to protect his family. Be that as it may it doesn’t reduce the risk to humans and if it cannot be corrected he will be put down, no matter how much it may hurt us emotionally.
I took our Dane to the vet today and he checked out perfectly. He is now 52 pounds (5 months old) and gained 20lbs in the last 30 days. We made an appointment for Saturday to have the Chow neutered. We discussed the issues we are having with the vet and she told us that the neutering should go a long way in curbing this behavior. She told us that it will take about a month for the hormones to get out of his system and we should start seeing some improvement then. We are of course going to try to find a local trainer that might be able to help us in the meantime. I did make it very clear to the vet that if this doesn’t work, I will have no choice but for her to put the dog down. I would hate to do it, for he is very loving towards us and I think is a dog worth saving. We already saved him from destruction from the pound and would hate to have him face this fate again.
Someone above asked if he gets out on his own and the answer is no. We keep him inside and walk him with a leash and have a fenced backyard for exercise. I am fully aware of our responsibility and take it very seriously. Our dogs are loved and trained the best we can, as mentioned I truly believe that the Chow’s problem is the characteristics of the breed. Hopefully it can be overcome and he can be a member of the family for many years.
I have a rather aggressive dog, but, perhaps fortunately, she is not very protective of us. She is territorial and rather protective of herself. I never let her run loose or get near people without introducing her and I react quite forcefully if she gets too frisky.
She absolutely has no doubt about her place in this pack. She growled at me a few times at first, but that habit was broken. But I will never completely trust her with strangers - she is too nervous (rescue) and too strong. She’s worth the effort.
I am not an expert but I am a very doggy person…I train sheepdogs (some Aussies on occasion) and have over 15 years experience working in the vet industry.
I also share my home with a bastard blue heeler…he really is an asshole but the SO loves him so we make it work.
I don’t really see “red flag” all over what happened when you disciplined the Pom. I think it was most likely that the situation put him in an excited state rather than a clear cut “protecting my buddy” response. When a dog is confined (crate, chained, leash, etc) that can actually make them more tense and frustrated and result in a more extreme response. I personally think Chow/Aussie is on my list of top “never,ever should happen” mixes - chows are protective and aussies will have a herding instinct to control movement. Both are fairly intense in those aspects and that’s not a recipe for the best temperament in the world IMHO.
If your dog is untrustworthy around strangers, you just need to ask yourself how much you are willing to manage the problem. We have no kids, very few house visitors and a willingness to crate bastard heeler dog when we have company. We don’t feel a need to work on his friendliness but we do keep a very strict level of obedience on him. As a result, when the satellite guy came two hours early when the bastard heeler was in the yard, I was able to call him off cornering the poor guy with no dire consequences. If we didn’t have that control and the willingness to be vigilant (he’s never left in the yard by himself, he goes to the vet muzzled and sometimes sedated, etc), we’d have him PTS. We certainly would if we had kids because that would be too unpredicatable a situation. He’s 9 years old now and we’ve never had a run in with animal control nor has he successfully bitten anyone…and that’s not for lack of trying. My SO is a professional dog trainer though and we both have an above average set of dog training skills in the household. Honestly,it all boils down to management, management, management. He’s a happy bastard heeler and we don’t really try to change him but he is expected to toe the line.
I’m not a dog owner, so I don’t have any behavioral or training recommendations to bring to the table, but just as a general observation you have a dog that is genetically hardwired to be difficult to manage as a safe, social animal, and appears to be getting progressively more aggressive in general demeanor. From the responses in this thread it sounds like you can possibly train the dog to be more respectful of you personally, but being less aggressive toward strangers will be a much more chancy proposition.
You may love this dog, but it sounds like you are rolling the dice with other people’s safety in his presence, especially children. You have a potentially deadly animal with an uncertain temper you are trying to save. Unless you can guarantee to keep him from strangers/people/kids it is unlikely this story will end well. If he winds up attacking someone he is big enough to truly hurt them, and at that point your life just got much, much more complicated and tragic on every level you can imagine.
I definitely agree with the advice to work with a professional who has experience with Chows (since Chows are apparently known for behaving differently than other breeds) but
I am kind of wondering if this lack of socialization is making the problem worse. Dogs that are not well-socialized are more likely to be shy or fearful. Fearful dogs can act out in an aggressive manner.
My experience has been that most dogs respond to praise more than they respond to punishment, so I am thinking it might be more productive to reward the dog for desired behaviors (such as tolerating an outsider) than try to scold him for doing wrong.
Here is some advice on a chow chow specific forum that might be worth talking over with a qualified trainer: Stranger aggression - ChowChow.org
Ah, someone who read my post but did NOT actually read the link. It’s not about a “gigantic hate on for Cesar Milan.” If you’d read the link – all of it – firstly you wouldn’t have been able to respond so quickly, because it’s a very large complex website with many links and it will, frankly, take a while.
It’s not about hate for Milan, it’s about actual scientific observation having established that dominance theory is certainly mostly wrong as Milan applies it and possibly entirely wrong from the get-go. And then of course as you noted individuals further make mistakes by misapplying what Milan has tried to tell them.
One possibility that hasn’t been mentioned yet is that the ‘affectionate’ and ‘protective’ behavior you’re describing may be resource guarding. Dogs tend to see people as a source of food, attention, food, toys, food, and everything else good in life, so they’ll display ownership by constantly being in your personal space and driving everyone else off. (If the dog can invade your space any time it wants, that means it’s the boss. If the dog can growl at people who come close and make them back off, then it’s even more the boss.)
I strongly agree with the suggestion to find a professional trainer who has experience with behavior problems. It may be fairly easy to get your chow to toe the line, it may be extremely difficult or impossible. It’s certainly worth a try. Good luck to the bunch of you!
A good trainer (IMO avoid dominance-based/physical training with any Asian breed but ESPECIALLY a Chow) could be a life-saver for your dog, literally. Please pursue that avenue if at all possible.
If you no longer want him in your home out of fear of what he might do, please don’t take him to the pound; submit him to a rescue with experience trying to rehab aggressive dogs, or euthanize him.
IMO there is plenty of room in the world for aggressive, ‘unpredictable’ dogs; I’ve had one for 7 years. He’s about 12 now, he has improved vastly with training (the ‘training’ was much more about changing my behavior than his; once I made some significant changes myself, he fell in line with my wishes with relatively little effort), he has only been in one dog fight with a dog outside the household, and has never bitten a human badly enough to break the skin. He hasn’t used his teeth at all on any person in about 4 years now actually, which is great.
Disclaimer: I don’t find my Ferdy to be unpredictable at all; he just has a very limited ability to cope with the situations and individuals that more normal dogs take in stride. As long as I am aware of his limits and supervise in order to ensure he is not pushed past them (for instance: we never go anywhere where there will be crowds, and I make sure he is never closely approached by children or other dogs while he is on a lead), he is predictable and trustworthy and causes me very little trouble. Of course in the beginning when his behavior was much worse and I didn’t know him so well, it was very stressful.
You have to make the commitment to the time, effort, and in some cases, money, that it takes to manage a dog with aggression issues safely. I’ve made it willingly because I like my dog, and to be honest, I am a tiny woman who lives alone - a big, fierce-seeming dog is mostly an asset, and keeping my dog mostly isolated from other people/animals is no problem considering my lifestyle. Your situation sounds totally different and I wouldn’t judge you at all if you decide you can’t or won’t keep a dog like this in your home. But, training might change the situation enough that you decide it is workable after all, so it’s worth a try if you like your dog and can afford it!
I’ve owned 2 Chow chow mixes now and I can agree…you need to be the Alpha. I never hit my dogs and rarely raise my voice, but they do know that I’m boss. My first chow was a Sharpei Mix. We had a great relationship until he died at 15 from gastric torsion. He got lots of socialization and exercise which probably helped. He was a great pup. He did have issues with telling me off occassionally. He hated to be brushed. Had to stop taking him to one groomer cause he would growl at her…he never offered to bite, just growled his displeasure.
I now have an Aussie/Chow mix. Probably more Aussie than Chow. She’s a rescue and she has a LOT of energy. We had an issue for the first night with the cats. We have 5 of them, but that issue was taken care of by the two older Siamese. One of them won’t tolerate bad behavior from dogs and teaches them their manners…the 25 lb one won’t tolerate dogs in his basement. So she’s been warned physically and verbally. I also made sure that she knew I wouldn’t tolerate her chasing the cats. It’s been 2 days and we have no issues at the moment. She just might be very malable. Anyway, your Chow mix might have been upset by the stern voice you exhibited when putting the Pom in it’s cage. I’d neuter and keep an eye on how he behaves normally. Once to me is not an issue. The issue would be on going aggressive behavior. I hope things have settled down as I see these are old links.
If he won’t listen, and shoes aggression to an owner, that owner is most surely not the “alpha male”, because if he was, he’d be able to control the dog.