I've got a vicious dog (long)

In My Humble Opinion
1

Well kinda. Short story, one of my dogs attacked another dog yesterday. I’d appreciate your thoughts.

I’ve got a 1 1/2 year old female and 10 month old male goldens. The male has not yet been fixed. We frequently go to a couple of dog parks, and before yesterday have never seen either dog act aggressively towards any other dog. To the contrary, they often seem to get bossed around by the more aggressive/dominant dogs. My 2 dogs play together at home all the time, often quite roughly and with jaws snapping, but all clearly in good spirits. Neither has ever drawn blood from the other.

Buster’s (the male) favorite thing is to chase a ball or frisbee. Daisy is more interested in running, chasing birds and rabbits. At times when Buster gets his ball, he will bark with it in his mouth. I always thought it was just a silly thing, “Look at me!” After yesterday, my wife says she wondered if it might be aggressive.

We were the only ones at the dog park early yesterday morning. As we were getting ready to leave, another guy came up with a young, very active golden. That dog played with Clover a little bit, then ran up to Buster a couple of times as Buster was chasing his ball. One time as Buster ran past the dog he did his barking thing with the ball in his mouth. The next time, the dog was nearby as Buster ran back towards me, and Buster ran at the dog barking aggressively, charged into its side bowling it over, and basically straddled it, barking very aggressively.

My wife and I were right there, and both yelled at him “Buster, no!” I got to them in less than 5 steps and grabbed Buster, pulling him off the other dog, lifting his front legs up off the ground, said “No!” right into his face, and gave him a smack on the side of his snout. He still had the ball in his mouth so I took the ball out and put it away, and put him on his leash. Meanwhile, my wife was petting and comforting the other dog as its owner came up.

We apologized profusely, said it had never happened before (a common refrain, I’m sure! but true in this instance), and told him we were leaving. Later that day we discussed when we would have Buster fixed, thinking it might reduce any aggressive tendencies.

This a.m. my wife went to the dog park. Upon exiting, there was a note on her car, saying the other dog had required 8 staples on its stomach, and asking us to call. Apparently the owner’s sister works at the park district (headquarters next to the dog park) and she put the note on the car and spoke to my wife as well.

So there’s the situation. Thoughts?

A couple of mine. It seems weird to us that the other dog was hurt so badly, as we didn’t notice the injury and my dog never let go of his ball. But I don’t see how we could possibly deny respoinsiblility as our dog was very clearly the aggressor and some significant contact occurred. So there is no question but that we have to offer to pay for the vet bill (tho I am dreading the cost of such emergency care on a Sunday!)

We had been delaying fixing Buster as a friend wanted to stud him to her bitch. (Please, I really don’t need opinions on the merit of this idea.) But her bitch will not go into heat for a month or so, and we don’t want to wait if there is a chance that fixing him will reduce any aggression.

Have you ever had a dog that did anything like this before? Did you do anything that you thought successful in preventing recurrences?

It was SO out of character. We call Buster our “surfer dude” - up until now he just always seems so laid back and happy.

I’ve never experienced anything like this before. I don’t want to minimize the distress caused the other dog’s owners, but it is also quite distressing to have your dog injure another.

2

I can’t say that taking an intact male dog to interact with strange dogs was a wise idea.

The other dog could have been clawed up by your dog, no teeth required.

At our house, everyone gets fixed ASAP. You didn’t want comment on the lack of neutering, but I’m going to surmise that it’s 90% of the problem here and say nothing further.

Pay the vet bill and thank Og that you’re not looking at the possibility of having to put your dog down.

3

I’m sorry to hear this happened.

What is your dog like normally at giving up whatever he’s holding in his mouth to the two of you? Will he drop it on command or is he a bit possessive?

4

92% of dogs involved in fatal dog attacks were not spayed or neutered. This is an even more striking statistic when you realize that 75% of owned dogs are spayed or neutered. Get him fixed ASAP.

5

First off, don’t breed Buster. He has shown that he has an aggressive side that you don’t want perpetuated in the bloodline.

Secondly, contact a veterinary behaviorist to do a proper assessment of Buster and go on their recommendations.

6

Very eager to give it up. Will drop it on your chair or in your hand upon request, or will readily allow you to remove it from his mouth with no tugging or running away. Whatever will get you to throw it again!

My wife spoke with the other owner. He said there was a single perfectly round hole, with an adjacent scratch. There is no question but that Buster bowled the dog over hard. My wife wants to think that the dog might have fallen onto a stick or something when that happened. But I can’t avoid the fact that we know there were some sharp pointy things in the immediate vicinity - Buster’s canines. I don’t know if he holds the ball back in his jaws such that a canine might have punctured the dog when he ran into it. Really surprises me, tho, that he and Clover have never drawn blood, as roughly as they play with each other.

The other guy didn’t realize Buster had his ball in is mouth. He said “He was barking.” My wife said, yeah, he does that with his ball in his mouth. Several folk have seen it and commented on how silly it is. And I took his ball out of his mouth when reacting to the incident.

As of this a.m., the other owner says he does not want us to compensate his costs. Of course, that may change in the future. We’ll see whether Buster gets banned from the dog park, and if so, if his neutering might earn him a second chance. Man, I hope the police don’t get involved. Of course, since the guy informed the park district, it is possible they will inform the cops.

The other owner seems really cool right now - probably cooler than I would be. He admitted that his dog was bugging Buster, trying to get him to play. Of course, that doesn’t mean the dog deserves to get bitten for being playful.

Not the way I wanted to start our Monday!

upon edit - we took the next appointment our vet had available for neutering, and will not go back to the dog park for at least a couple of weeks - after we have come back from a trip.

7

This is the second time you’ve posted words to this effect. It must be nice to be able to control the debate.

I will honor your command, yet again, and not discuss the morality of the decision.

I am not a vet but I always see it stated that neutering reduces dog-on-dog aggression. It seems plausible.

I recommend to the general readership that after any incident of rough dog contact at a dog park, the humans involved give both dogs a thorough inspection on the spot, before leaving the premises, to turn up little surprises of this sort.

I am sorry to read that your boy acted this way – it can be very upsetting when you know and love a dog, and the cash cost is potentially high as well. :frowning:

Fortunately, there’s little danger your local legislators will ban goldens. Breed-specific legislation is an ugly thing.

8

He sounds like he is possessive of his ball, and is in the midst of puberty with all the attendant problems associated with that.

To be honest, the behaviour you describe does not sound particularly vicious and I think owners get overly worried about this kind of behaviour because of the reaction of other dog owners. The other dog didn’t heed his warning to stay away from him and his ball, and then pushed him a little too far by coming back closer. Seems to be a basic failure of communication on the part of the other dog. You may feel guilty for the outcome, but to it doesn’t sound like your dog’s fault.

If he had really meant it, he would have dropped the ball and gone for the other dog’s throat/belly/whatever with his teeth. Growling and barking are all precursors to this, but it does not necessarily mean he was going to go there. Better to nip it in the bud, though, before he discovers that it works for him.

My opinion, since you asked, is to get him fixed and don’t breed him. The world does not need more puppies and your life will be a lot calmer. I won’t say any more, but you can guess my feelings on the matter.

If this doesn’t change his behaviour dramatically, you may need to work on socialisation with him in the dog park with him on a long leash. Positive reinforcement for good doggie etiquette, removal from situation for bad. You may also have to be careful about what he is playing with depending on the other dogs that are around. We have a very ball possessive collie, and her reaction to dogs completely changes depending upon whether she has a ball in her mouth. She has never attacked a dog because of it, but plenty of warning growls and snaps. Most dogs take this hint, but not all are well enough socialised.

9

We were - at best - ambivalent about breeding him from the start, and now realize we ought to have neutered him earlier. And he will be ball-less shortly.

This is the last thing I intend to mention on this particular aspect. Please feel free to express whatever you wish on that subject either in this thread or elsewhere. I apologize that I personally will probably tend to skim your post if it appears you wish that to be one of your main points.

Maybe I should go back to that thread asking about re-reading your old posts. Hell, this one isn’t an hour old, and I’m regretting posting it! :stuck_out_tongue:

10

From what you’ve said, this may well be an isolated incident, and I would agree with the other posters that fixing him will make this even less likely to re-occur.

One thought does linger though. I think often people with multiple dogs will mistakenly assume that their dog is socialised simply through having another dog in the household. I think this approach is wrong - dogs need to learn how to act around strange dogs, and that’s different to how they act around dogs they live with.

It may be that (post neutering) he may need more disciplined trips to the park on leash, being introduced to new dogs and not being allowed to become overly excited by them (which can very quickly turn to aggression).

11

If your friend with the bitch-who’s-not-in-heat-yet REE-HEE-HEEEALLY wants Buster’s sperm, then he can still be the stud to her puppies. Just have her pay to have some of his sperm frozen, then go get him fixed, then she can use it when her bitch is ready.

But if I were in her position, I would prefer my puppies were sired by a dog that HADN’T already shown aggressive tendencies. Does she know that this has happened?

In Buster’s defense - he’s a teenager going through puberty. We’ve all been there. Maybe you’ll never have this problem with him again. Who knows?

12

Rather than put him down or something quite so drastic I would give up the dog parks. Dog parks are a lot like an unsupervised melee for kindergartners. Some dogs can handle it, others may become overwhelmed, or show a lack of socialization around other dogs. My wife is a dog trainer and constantly points out instances that to me look like standard dog play. To her they show confrontations narrowly avoided and body language from some dogs that is either fear based aggression or bullying.

13

Long story somewhat abbreviated about our dog:

After Max bit, we took him to the vet for a thorough checkup to make sure nothing was wrong with him. He was already fixed (happened just before we adopted him). Then we consulted a dog behaviorist – and learned that while Max did indeed display dominant aggressive behavior, we needed instruction on how to read his body language and handle him around dogs and people. Getting Max socialized around other dogs (at daycare, on walks and at the dog park) and being able to recognize aggressive signs and correct them has been the best thing for him. He is by no means “cured,” but he now knows how to “say hi” to dogs and people without incident – we do mind him constantly and continue to work with the behaviorist in an aggressive dog class (again, where Max has to socialize in close contact with other dogs).

While this may certainly be an isolated incident, based on our experience I think it’s vital that you and your family learn how to recognize and correct Buster’s behavior before it becomes a problem. We aren’t pros by any means, but we’ve learned how to introduce Max to other dogs and to people and correct him immediately.

Also, fixing a dog will not necessarily or immediately curb his aggression. It may take several months.

14

Probably the main reason we like the dog park is because it is one of the few places where one can legally and (relatively) safely allow dogs off-leash. We do tend to go at “off times” when we expect there to be fewer other peopl and dogs there because so many other dogs are so poorly behaved and, in the past, our dogs seemed to be bossed around by more dominant dogs. Also, although our dogs have never seemed aggressive towards other dogs, they seem more interested in running around and chasing birds and balls, than playing with other dogs.

We put a bit of effort into training our dogs. We are pretty aware of dog behavior, and often remove our dogs at even the hint of unpleasantness. I did not interpret Buster’s barking with his ball as anything other than goffiness because in all other respects he has been such a goofy dog, and because he ALWAYS gives the ball up so readily.

Just a little background - no excuse: they go to the dog park just about every day - sometimes twice. So he has been exposed to a large number of different dogs in this same environment. Tho he is only 10 months old, he has been there well over 100 times - maybe 200 - with zero incident to date.

15

Yeah, 10 months is pretty young for this sort of incident – I hardly ever see aggression from young dogs at the dog park, who tend to be submissive. I have to admit I wouldn’t have expected it from Buster myself, especially since he has been there often enough for the trip to be routine.

16

Wait–question, who’s Daisy and who is Clover? Is one of them your other dog?

17

The ball in his mouth wasn’t the issue. :wink:

Get him fixed. That aggressive behavior will change almost overnight if you get him neutered right away.

18

Total spaz re: Daisy. Our last female golden’s name was Daisy, as is the bitch they wanted to breed to Buster. Current dogs are Buster and Clover.

19

Could you keep your dog largely indoors for the next month, until the stud opportunity rolls around, and then have him fixed?

20

Putting the dog down isn’t on the table anyway. The most drastic thing currently on the table is having him de-nadded, which needed to be done anyway.

I’ve seen this sort of thing lots at work, most commonly with intact male dogs around Buster’s age. As others have said, he’s in puberty, so this is when you start seeing the testosterone-related behavioral changes like humping and especially aggression and increased territoriality. How aggressive or territorial he might or might not get is hard to predict, especially if you were to let him keep his attitude tumors. But your current course of action is by far your best bet for nipping this in the bud.

Get him neutered, give him a few weeks for the incisions to heal thoroughly and the hormone levels to come down some, then take him to the dog park purely on-leash for a bit and see how he does. If he seems okay, start letting him off-leash but don’t let him have any toys whatsoever for a while.

One thing I wonder about–I know he’s good about giving you his ball, but how is he with strangers taking it? Is his behavior about that different at home than it is at the dog park? Some dogs are fine with sharing anything at all with members of their household, but outsiders better stay the hell away from their bowl/ball/human/sunny spot. It may have been a contributing factor to what happened.