Aggressive, but loving dog.

In My Humble Opinion
1

Hello Everyone,
Need a bit of advice on a dog issue. We have three dogs a 6 year old Pomeranian, a 5 month old Great Dane and a 1.5 year old Chow/Australian Shepherd mix, and we love them all.

The problem is our Chow/Shepherd mix. He is the most loving dog I have ever had, always by your side and ready with a wag of the tail or a sloppy lick to the face. However, he has always (since about 6 months old) had a very protective streak in him. He loves the family very much, but he is extremely protective of us not trusting outsiders and even becoming aggressive. He has not bitten anyone, but barks and snarls and looks very very intimidating. We, of course, are very aware of this personality trait and seldom take him in public any more and if we do he is muzzled. Even though we muzzle him I am still very concerned that one day he may mistakenly get out and hurt someone. To be clear, I would not classify him as “dangerous” in the sense that he is a killer dog. But he is very aggressive to those not in the family, trying to protect us. The problem is he doesn’t know the difference between a stranger and a threat.

So, here is where my concern comes in. We kennel our dogs in the evening. Last night we put the Chow in his kennel for bed. We took out the Dane and the Pomeranian to use the rest room prior to being kenneled. The Pom took of running as he tends to do at times. We finally found him and while putting him away scolded him. Keep in mind we did not hit or physically assault the Pom in any way. We just talked very sternly to him in a deep voice telling him that he was bad and not listening. (The Pom is very intuitive and seems to know why he is in trouble) While we were doing that the Chow (in his kennel) sensing that the Pom, his buddy, was in trouble became very agitated and started snarling and barking. This startled me very much as he has never showed aggression toward a family member and certainly not the Alpha male (me). If he hadn’t been in his kennel there would have been a real problem.

Well, my wife and I are very confused now and don’t know what to do next. This morning the Chow is back to his normal loving self. I can not overstate how loving this dog is to us, the outburst being very out of character. We love him very much, but neither of us are willing to put up with an aggressive dog that might be unpredictable. (Perhaps I am making too much out of this, but the line has to be drawn somewhere) He hasn’t been neutered yet, I am taking the Great Dane for a vet checkup today and will schedule the neutering for the Chow at that time. Do you think that by getting the Chow neutered that this will curb the aggressive streak in him? I have read quite a bit and I understand that the Chow breed is very aggressive and protective, I am not sure about the Aussie however. The behavior that he exhibits is not aggressive to all things, more protective. The problem is he seems to treat almost everything as a threat. We love him very much and would hate to have to get rid of him, but have both agreed that if we cannot curb this behavior and if it gets worse we will either have to send him to the pound (maybe not a good idea, because he would just end up someone else’s problem) or put him down. Neither a good option. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

For the record, the Chow has NEVER been abused only loved and taken care of. We got him when he was 6 weeks old. The other thing that concerns me is that our Great Dane is very lovable, everyone’s friend. We don’t want him to learn from the Chow to be over protective. We certainly don’t need a 200lb aggressive dog, although from what I know about Danes, aggressiveness isn’t in their makeup.

2

Yikes. I can only suggest professional help. That is a serious problem, and if it can be corrected it’s gonna need lots of time, expense, and someone who really knows what they’re doing.

I wouldn’t worry so much about the barking, but the snarling doesn’t sound good.

3

I knew instinctively which dog was the troublemaker before reading beyond the description of the types of dogs you own. Chows are notorious for their temperament. I would professional help ASAP!!

4

Yup, professional trainer time. My husband is a letter carrier and has significant trouble with dogs who are loving to their family but insanely protective of them, to the point that these dogs will not take cues from the family members and know when to calm down and allow the delivery person/official/neighbor/neighbor’s child in the family’s yard. At least you’re aware of the issue, which is a start - he’ll see some dogs snarling and lunging, and the owner is standing there ineffectually calling the dog’s name, or worse yet, just saying, “He doesn’t bite, don’t worry.” (His response is, “He doesn’t bite you.”)

5

I know you love him and all, but I’d probably put him down. No room in this world for unpredictable, aggressive dogs. Neutering him might help, but if it doesn’t, I think putting him down is a more responsible option than taking him to the pound.

6

I’m going to buck the trend and say that the dog is able to be redeemed IF you can actually take the dominant position. Just because you say you are the Alpha Male, doesn’t mean you are. Watch the Dog Whisperer on Nat Geo Wild (daily) or Hulu to see what I mean. Lots of people assume they are Alpha just because they are people. Their dogs don’t see them that way and feel forced to take that role. When the people step up and really take the role (with guidance from pros), the dog is happy to give it up.

Now, everyone can start the flaming. I admit that I have no experience with “difficult” dogs, like chows. It may be that you are really the alpha in your pack, that your spouse and kids are also alpha and your dogs come last. It may be that you are doing everything right and you just have a dog that can’t be rehabilitated. But it also sounds like you love your dogs and want to make it work, so if watching a few hours of TV can make a difference, go watch the shows and get professional help.

And DEFINITELY get him neutered!

If you are truly the alpha and he is behaving aggressively toward you, then I agree with everyone else that you should put him down rather that dumping him on the pound.

7

Dogs can be trained, you know.

8

Find a GOOD trainer-and I do not mean PetSmart or the like- and sign up for classes. Be sure the instructor is aware your dog is showing aggressive tendancies and is QUALIFIED to deal with them. And by all means HAVE HIM NEUTERED. Make the appointment TODAY.

As it stands right now, this dog is a ticking timebomb just waiting to go off. And he WILL go off. He does not respect you. Someone is going to be bitten, it is just a matter of time and circumstances.

I am an ex- instructor for a large local obedience club and have many years experience training dogs, and I will tell you straight up, I would not touch this dog with a 10 foot pole. Quite frankly, if one of my own behaved this way they would bet a one-way trip to the vet. I do not tolerate aggression in any way, shape or form. My feelings are- there are too damned many sweet tempered dogs in the world looking for a home to put up with one you can never be 100% certain of.

Don’t get me wrong-I love my dogs beyond belief, and I’m certain you love yours, too. But for one moment imagine if he were to suddenly be in ‘a mood’ and decide to take it out on one of your kids?

Just something to think about.

9

Can’t hurt; might help. To me the real question is, why wouldn’t you neuter him? As in, have already done so in the past? (I mean, it’s not like he’s a valuble purebred show champ, right?)

Ah, so we have a mix of dogs that have been bred a) to be aggressively protective of their humans and b) to be energetically protective of their flock. How ever could that possibly go wrong?

Your pack consists of:

  • a small dog that runs disobediently away (whee!)
  • a medium-sized dog that’s showing increasing signs of aggression (snarl!)
  • a huge dog that outweighs you (???)

You need more help (and better help) than you will find in an internet message board. Time to strike out into meatspace, and find a competent trainer. Good luck, and report back (with pictures!) :slight_smile:

10

Sure they can. But they’re not trying to teach it to fetch or give high-fives. It’s a temperament issue and that’s something that can come out at any time - even with all the training in the world. Not worth the risk and it’s irresponsible to think otherwise.

11

I know. But hundreds of dogs that are not dangerously aggressive are put down every day in pounds. If that wasn’t the case, I’d be slightly more inclined to work with dogs like the one in the OP. As it is, this one is dangerous, and that’s a liability I would not be willing to take on for a second. If it were my dog, I’d rather put him down and go straight to the pound to save a life that isn’t likely to attack me or a kid someday.

12

I once had a dog I thought might be too wild for me. He was freakishly strong, definitely stronger than me. I’d got him because, the people who had him for the first year, had done nothing to train him and he was out of control. He was also coded alpha male and a husky dog. There were definitely times when I considered he was too much for me and maybe I should take him to the pound.

I did learn to be stronger than him and to discipline him. But I was told, at the time, to never, ever, under any circumstances, to tolerate growling. I was told, whenever and wherever he did this, I was to grab him by both sides of his face, make him sit, (walking into him to exaggerate my small size), and be loud and angry with my 'no’s and 'bad dog’s.

Having him fixed didn’t do much to change his ways, as the vet had said. But the zero tolerance for growling, definitely did. Maybe you could try that.

13

The fact that the chow mix was growling while he was kenneled suggest that there might be some mixed messages here. Perhaps he was unclear about who you were disciplining. Perhaps he was angry at the Pom because he knew you were angry at the Pom.

Also, you shouldn’t discipline the Pom when you put him in the kennel. The time to discipline for running away is when you catch him. (If he comes up to you - you shouldn’t discipline at all. You should reward him for coming back.) Scolding the Pom after the fact, when you put him in his kennel just confuses the matter and makes him think the kennel is a punishment.

I think you should take all three dogs for professional training. The Pom shouldn’t run away. The Chow needs to know who’s the boss. The Dane will enjoy the attention, if nothing else. And you’ll probably learn somethings too, obbn.

And neuterings for everyone!

14

obbn’s is optional.

15

Some dogs, can. I love dogs and I know from being around them, some dogs are just not going to ever be acceptable as pets.

The same way some people can’t function in society, some dogs are like that too.

If he is one of those dogs, it’s not really fair to anyone to put them at risk. If this dog bites a little kid or even a grown up and you KNEW this was a possibility, you’re not showing much responsibility toward others.

Take him to a professional and try to get him trained. If so, fine, but not all training sessions result in well trained dogs. And putting a dog down may have to be the answer.

It’s hard but it is a dog and a human being’s safety is more important.

16

Okay, I am a dog trainer (not a professional one, just an amateur) and I do have one aggressive dog, an Aussie (they are, historically, a guardian breed as well as a herding dog). He is absolutely lovely within his own family, and is the most intelligent, loyal, and talented dog I have ever owned (and I’ve had quite a few). I have worked extensively with dog-aggression specialist trainers with this dog, because I love him so much and it would break my heart to put him down although I know this might happen anyway.

My dog is aggressive with strange dogs, too – this is something I have been able to modify a great deal. But, he is also capable of biting strangers who coo over and attempt to cuddle him, which he, as do many dogs, believe it or not, interprets as highly threatening. I have to monitor his behavior around strangers 100% of the time – and I have to monitor the strangers’ behavior even more – I have a lot more control over my dog than I do over them.

Here is what I advise. First, think about how much you love this dog. Truth: not all dogs are equally loveable. Dogs are not children, despite what many people feel. They are not all owed a long life, although I believe they are all owed a painless death to the degree we can give it to them.

Then think about how much money, time, and effort you are willing to put into keeping this dog from harming anyone. It might be a lot, and it will be for the life of the dog. My dog isn’t five yet and I have spent more than a thousand dollars on this one problem. You probably will too.

“Aggression” is a very loose word. A behaviorist can help you understand what kinds of reactivity your dog is exhibiting. All, repeat, all, dogs can and will bite under the right circumstances, and for a large range of reasons and under very different emotional states.

Please, PLEASE, don’t get training advice off the internet or even out of a book, for this. If your dog bites someone – and it really does NOT have to be a serious wound – you are liable for not just medical costs but for whatever “psychological trauma” recompense the bitee’s lawyer can squeeze out of your homeowner’s insurance company. That’s a BEST CASE scenario.

You will also have to live with the guilt of being responsible for any damage your dog may ever cause to anyone. This is, take it from me, not small.

Look for a local specialist in aggression problems. Ask around. If the trainer uses harsh physical “alpha wolf” techniques, I’d go somewhere else. Yes, if you have a very dominant, territorial, aggressive breed (and chows are near the top of all breeds for these traits), you are going to have to find a way to be a leader for your dog. That means you have to own the world your dog lives in, in a way that the large majority of dogs don’t require (but would be happier if they had that kind of leadership). But this requires finesse and an excellent understanding of how dogs think, not brutality. Fear of you is not what you want to inculcate in your dog.

In a nutshell, what you will need to teach your dog is: “Chill out, I’m handling this (perceived threat). You’re safe with me, if you do what I tell you.” That is, you will have to change your relationship, probably from the ground up. This is not a small project.

Cesar Milan is excellent about owning your dog’s space and being an effective leader. Highly recommend his tapes. But you will also need behavior-mod chops – positive reinforcement for behaving well. Behavior Mod by whatever name is the most popular training technique by pros so it should be readily available.

Muzzling your dog in public is a superb idea. Keep doing that.

Neutering your dog, in my opinion, does one thing well: it keeps your dog from passing on his genes. If there are intact females around, it will damp down some of the frenzy in his mind. It will keep him out of dog fights over females in heat. But it will not keep him out of dog fights in general. It will not make him less dominant. It will not make him less territorial. It will not solve any training issues whatsoever. It will not change his relationship to any human beings. Neutering your dog, if your dog ends up in court over a dog bite, will give an impression of your being a responsible dog owner, so there’s that.

I’ve been through an enormous amount because of my aggressive dog, some of it truly horrible and I have to say, some of it amazing. My dog has a deep, powerful, noble personality, and it is a privilege to own him. He has raised the bar much higher for me in terms of my training chops and leadership skills. There is no simple answer, despite what some will tell you. I’ve known lots of people who have had to deal with their aggressive dogs – way more than you would imagine. You are far from alone.

Good luck!

17

Trying to do the “Alpha Roll” crap like Cesar Milan espouses is a good way to get bitten while doing nothing for the aggression, and anything punishment related runs the risk of making an aggressive dog more keyed up and defensive, since they think that they need to punish you for stepping out of line. The OP needs to get professional help from someone who has a clue about modern understanding of dog behavior, which does not include Cesar Milan.

18

There’s a lot of wrong advice in this thread, although there are some very good posts (Merneith’s stands out, for one.) Also this:

horsetech is right.

Although it was regarded as important to understanding dogs many years ago, “dominance” theory has undergone considerable re-evaluation in recent years. Whether dominance even exists in wolves and dogs – in the form we used to understand – has been questioned by scientists. For example, it’s finally been noticed that wolves DO NOT “alpha roll” weaker wolves and force their submission – submission is OFFERED voluntarily, never forced on an unwilling wolf in the wild.

Even many trainers, vets and professionals who still believe in some form of dominance no longer apply “dominance theory” to training companion animals, preferring to engage the companion’s willingness to participate rather than to force rote obedience.

An unusually thorough summary of the discussion can be found here:

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/

With additional links to other opinions at the bottom of the page.

Note that the site in the link above is actually quite detailed and discusses this topic at great length; readers who want to take issue with it would be advised to actually read it first rather than regurgitate something a parent told them 40 years ago.

What you need for this dog is an animal behaviorist, not just a “trainer.” In the meantime, don’t grab the dog’s face or use force. Period.

And I always recommend ADDING simple reward-based behavioral training to physical exercise – everyone I’ve talked to has noticed that mental AND physical stimulation combined do wonders for dog behavior and happiness.

Best of luck!

19

I despise dogs, refuse to own or foster one, don’t allow them in my house absent an emergency, and even I think that’s extreme. Surely it would be better to try to train the dog before killing it.

20

Chow’s are known for and have been bred for protecting the family and chattels. They are powerful and stubborn and notriously difficult to train. Your mix clearly has the Chow personality.

Your larger dog has probably already accepted the chow as the leader, which means he will probably join in to any fight the chow deems necessary.

If the chow views the fellow dogs as it’s pack over the humans then you are in serious trouble, and need to prepare yourself for very bad news from the trainer. Did I mention I agree with the above? Get a good professional trainer in ASAP! And of course, a Vet trip is in order as well.

It’s possible that he was actually supporting your point of view and growling at the little dog - can’t be sure.

How secure is your yard? Have the dogs ever gotten away? My primary concern would be that the dogs would get out and the Chow would attack anyone who attempted to catch the other two. If, as I suspect, the three are a pack this would almost certainly end in a death.

You need professional help and your first question is: Has this dog accepted me as alpha/the family as it’s pack or is it primarily attached to the canines?

Please do not underestimate the seriousness of this problem. It is -take the next two days off work to get this situation in hand- serious.

If you have children in the house, and one of them (or you, or your wife) tries to discipline the little dog, What might happen? :: shudder ::

T’were it me, I’d get a comfortable soft basket-muzzle and make a practice of keeping it on him anytime he is out of the kennel for the foreseeable future. The is a case where over-reaction is far preferable to under-reaction.