airstrikes on Gaza

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So why doesn’t Israel just declare war on Palestine and get it over with?

Would Israel be able to do these things without repercussions? The fact taht Israel has the physical ability to firebomb and invade gaza doesn’t mean it has the political ability to do so.

Others in the area would get involved and I don’t know how much support Israel thinks it would would get from its allies.

So you just answered your own question. But my point was, there can be no talk of “marshall plan” kind of thing without the preliminaries.

This paranoia that Israelis have about the ravening hordes of Palestinians that would destroy them it given the ability to do so it overblown and an insurmountable impediment to peace.

Because, of course, when Palestinians took over some territories and half of Jerusalem in the past (think 1948) they didn’t make them Judenrein. Or did they?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Was it just jews that had to defer to muslims or was it christians too?

Why do you insist on typing out “jews” instead of “Jews”?

Is it related to your insistence that American Jewish public officials can’t be supportive of the Arabs and that people of Jewish descent should be considered Jews even if they were raised as Christians and unaware of their ethnic heritage?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Damuri_Ajashi

how is that pointless. You said that the Zionists bought the land. Did you mean that zionists bought SOME land and then declared a nation with national borders that mostly included the land of others? Because tahty paints a different pciture than “the zionists bought the land” when referring to Israel.

How is that a nonsense question. When you say “when THEY formed the nation” as if everyone (or even a majority of the people) who were physically present at the time were in agreement. I guess what I’m saying is that you are saying things ins a way that makes it sound like Zionists had bought all the land that is now Israel and then the people on the land decided to form the state of Israel.

I have to say you’re not inspiring confidence in your knowledge of the area or the history of the area.

It wasn’t “the Zionists” who set the borders called for the creation of the Jewish state but the UN.

This has been explained to you repeatedly by multiple posters.

The fact that you apparently have forgotten what is common knowledge of the situation doesn’t help your claim that you want people to “drop knowledge” on you, but instead suggests that you desire to be combative or have an extreme aversion for facts which contradict your preferred version of events.

Here we go. All criticism of Israel and zionism is anti-semitism. Thats what these arguments always come down to when the pro-Israel folks can’t hold up their end of an argument.

Ok, since you’re going to pull the “anti-Semitism card” then perhaps you can answer some relevant questions.

If someone insists that Madeline Albright is hostile to Arab interests because her grandparents were Jewish and she should be considered a Jew because her grandparents were Jewish even if her parents converted to Christianity and she herself was raised a Christian has that person expressed an anti-Semitic belief.

Note, I don’t think having anti-Semitic beliefs makes one an anti-Semite or even for that matter that being an anti-Semite means that one is stupid or evil.

However, please give us the benefit of your well thought out answer to the question.

Thanks in advance.

[JEngelman]

@Grey

I’m curious. How many Israeli civilians need to be killed by unguided Hamas rockets before Israel is allowed to effectively retaliate? Is there a sliding scale where the Israelis are allowed to become more and more effective as the count grows?

The Palestinians will not be satisfied until Israel is destroyed. That will not happen, so somebody better tell them that as long as they shoot rockets they will be bombed.

[CarnalK]

@Damuri_Ajashi

As a practical matter, might makes right (to some extent) in foreign affairs. But ignoring the origin of Israel as a source of Palestinian discontent is not going to get you closer to peace.

Maybe in a couple hundred years but right now Israel isn’t going to enter discussions that requires them to admit to being unjustifiably founded.

[Trinopus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

And yet I hear arguments from time to time where Israel apologists claim a long standing historical anti-semitism as the root cause of the hatred that Israel is being subjected to. As if the creation of the state of Israel and the plight of the Palestinians have nothing to do with it.

There were dangerous anti-Semitic offenses in the Holy Land before the declaration of Israel.

The Mufti of Jerusalem was very well known to be violently anti-Semitic, before Israel was founded.

The creation of the state of Israel was not the problem (in the opinion of many) but the war that the various Arab states declared against Israel, microseconds after it was founded. Without that war, there would not have been as much of a “plight of the Palestinians.”

I won’t pretend everything would have been peace and flowers, but the war pretty much formed the pattern for everything that follows, even to the attacks we see today.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Terr

So you just answered your own question. But my point was, there can be no talk of “marshall plan” kind of thing without the preliminaries.
Because, of course, when Palestinians took over some territories and half of Jerusalem in the past (think 1948) they didn’t make them Judenrein. Or did they?

Not to excuse ethnic cleansing but did they do that before or after the Zionists declared a country within their midst? You make it sound like it was an unprovoked action arising from their deep hatred of Jews.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Ibn_Warraq

Why do you insist on typing out “jews” instead of “Jews”?

I dunno, why do you focus so much on irrelevant shit? And do I also get demerits for spelling out christians with lower case? Do you ever have any real points to make or do you just like to share trivia?

Is it related to your insistence that American Jewish public officials can’t be supportive of the Arabs and that people of Jewish descent should be considered Jews even if they were raised as Christians and unaware of their ethnic heritage?

Yep, more accusations of anti-semitism. Its pretty much the only page in your playbook after you clear away all the irrelevant stuff.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Ibn_Warraq

I have to say you’re not inspiring confidence in your knowledge of the area or the history of the area.

It wasn’t “the Zionists” who set the borders called for the creation of the Jewish state but the UN.

So when they declared themselves a nation, they asked the UN?

Did they use the UN borders because those were the borders that existed at the time? Once again WTF is the point behind your irrelevant comments? If all you have to contribute is trivia, you might want to post in MPSIMS.

This has been explained to you repeatedly by multiple posters.

So tell me again why people keep repeating that the zionists bought the land when they only bought some parcels of land?

The fact that you apparently have forgotten what is common knowledge of the situation doesn’t help your claim that you want people to “drop knowledge” on you, but instead suggests that you desire to be combative or have an extreme aversion for facts which contradict your preferred version of events.

I think english must be your second language because it is impossible for me to divine wtf you are talking about. Why be so coy, none of the other Israel apologists are. What common knowledge are you talking about?

Ok, since you’re going to pull the “anti-Semitism card” then perhaps you can answer some relevant questions.

If someone insists that Madeline Albright is hostile to Arab interests because her grandparents were Jewish and she should be considered a Jew because her grandparents were Jewish even if her parents converted to Christianity and she herself was raised a Christian has that person expressed an anti-Semitic belief.

You want to make a case for my anti-semitism, go right ahead. Don’t be coy. Cite the posts and let people see how they look in context.

IIRC, we my big error was not knowing wtf an arabist was. I had assumed an arabist was someone with arab sympathies not merely someone who was an expert on arabic stuff. I brought up Madeleine Albright’s lineage to rebutt someone’s claim that the state department was full of people who were hostile to Israel and at that point you took us on an Alice in Wonderland magnitude tangent. So please cite the post you are talking about and let everyone see how you interpret the world. Perhaps I am an anti-semite that can’t see the world straight because of my deep seated hatred for [J]ews and I just don’t know it.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Trinopus

There were dangerous anti-Semitic offenses in the Holy Land before the declaration of Israel.

The Mufti of Jerusalem was very well known to be violently anti-Semitic, before Israel was founded.

Yeah, this is well trodden ground. When did the Zionist aliyahs start? Before or after the Mufti of Jerusalem made overtures to Hitler? And one anti-semetic leader of a region where zionists immigrants are trying to carve out a nation does not establish a long history of anti-semitism.

The creation of the state of Israel was not the problem (in the opinion of many) but the war that the various Arab states declared against Israel, microseconds after it was founded. Without that war, there would not have been as much of a “plight of the Palestinians.”

Sure, they had just let the Zionists do whatever they wanted and there wouldn’t have been any problems at all. :rolleyes:

In the end, there were wars, Israel won them and apparently feels secure enough that they don’t feel the need to make any concessions to achieve better relations with their neighbors (see arab peace initiative).

I won’t pretend everything would have been peace and flowers, but the war pretty much formed the pattern for everything that follows, even to the attacks we see today.

Did Israel’s arab neighbors make it a secret how they would react to the formation of a Jewish state in their midst? So when they declared the Jewish state of Israel, none of the responsibility for what followed rests at the feet of the people who made the declaration?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I dunno, why do you focus so much on irrelevant shit?

Huh?

Because referring to the group that you blame for the current situation in the Middle East as “jews” instead of “Jews” it strikes me as extremely odd.

So, once again, why do you refer to “jews” instead of “Jews”.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Yep, more accusations of anti-semitism. Its pretty much the only page in your playbook after you clear away all the irrelevant stuff.

Huh? I haven’t accused you of anti-Semitism. I merely noted that you used the fact that Madeline Albright was the Secretary of State under Bill Clinton was proof that the State Department didn’t have large numbers of Arabists in it and you insisted that Albright couldn’t possibly be sympathetic to Arab causes or an expert in Arab culture because her parents came from Jewish families.

You also rather stupidly for several posts insisted she should be considered a Jew because her parents came from Jewish families and were extremely dismissive of posts which pointed out that she herself always considered herself a Christian and was raised as a Christian.

Is your position that someone who insists that Madeline Albright is a Jew despite being raised a Roman Catholic is an anti-Semite is the truth?

If so, why are you upset at me, since that is what you argued?

Perhaps I am an anti-semite that can’t see the world straight because of my deep seated hatred for [J]ews and I just don’t know it.

Huh?

I haven’t accused you of being an anti-Semite. I merely said, and I’ll happily defend the statement that you’ve expressed extremely anti-Semitic beliefs which I think you rather clearly did with respect to Madeline Albright.

Once again, I think it’s possible to hold anti-Semitic views without being an anti-Semite and even if one is an anti-Semite then that doesn’t mean one is stupid or evil.

Now, perhaps you’d like to explain why you think Madeline Albright should be considered a Jew even though she was raised a Catholic since you admit to arguing this.

I brought up Madeleine Albright’s lineage to rebutt someone’s claim that the state department was full of people who were hostile to Israel

[Dissonance]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So how doesn’t the imperial family qualify as the leaders of Japan?

How do the prime ministers, war ministers, and Army generals who were the actual leadership of Imperial Japan not qualify as the leadership of Japan being rounded up and executed for war crimes? The imperial family has never been the actual leadership in Japan; their earthly role is to rubber stamp decisions made by others.

@Damuri_Ajashi

Of course I’ve heard of the war crimes tribunal.

You may have heard of them, but clearly know very little about them if you think Japan got off lighter than Germany at Nuremburg. There were far more Japanese executed for war crimes than Germans.

@Damuri_Ajashi

Or just ignorant. It sounds like you know more about this than I do but I was always under the impression that the emperor ordered the surrender.

So how does a figurehead “order the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War to accept the terms the Allies had set down in the Potsdam Declaration for ending the war.”

Surrender of Japan - Wikipedia

“Ordered” is an extreme overstatement of what occurred. The Supreme Council for the Direction of the War was deadlocked 3-3 on the issue of surrender, with the military still wanting to continue the war even after both atomic bombs and the Soviet declaration of War. Again, by law the military held all the real cards, at any point they could force the civilian government to dissolve and have a new one formed to the military’s liking by simply having the war minister resign and refuse to appoint a new one. The Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal, one of those sentenced to life imprisonment that you seem to think doesn’t qualify as the leadership of Japan, advised the emperor to make the unprecedented step of telling the council he was in favor of ending the war.

If you scroll down the wiki article you linked to the section Attempted military coup d’état (August 12–15) you’ll see a group of young army officers attempted a coup to prevent the surrender and the broadcasting of the emperor’s taped recording in an act of ‘double patriotism’; they were going to carry out the ‘true’ wishes of the emperor by preventing his expressed wishes from being carried out. They informed war minister Anami, who neither expressly supported nor did anything to stop this act of treason. Acting against the expressed wishes of the emperor (which were largely the wishes of the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal in any event) in the name of his ‘true’ wishes was rather common. Prior to the Manchurian Incident the Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal impressed upon it to the emperor to make it known that he wanted no provocative action taken by the Kwangtung Army. Rather than fly to Manchuria, the army general tasked with delivering the communiqué took a ship and ensured that those he was to deliver the message to knew what it said before he had delivered it. In essence what he did was tell them to take provocative action now, before he had delivered them the communiqué telling them not to.

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Not to excuse ethnic cleansing but did they do that before or after the Zionists declared a country within their midst? You make it sound like it was an unprovoked action arising from their deep hatred of Jews.

You’re moving the goalposts. Your post was:

“This paranoia that Israelis have about the ravening hordes of Palestinians that would destroy them it given the ability to do so it overblown and an insurmountable impediment to peace.”

It is not paranoia if there is a precedent.

[Jackmannii]

@Damuri Ajashi

…one anti-semetic leader of a region where zionists immigrants are trying to carve out a nation does not establish a long history of anti-semitism.

It is naive at best to assume that all the trouble was due to the not-so-Grand Mufti. It began long before the Mufti got in bed with Hitler or a Jewish state was established.

@Damuri_Ajashi

And do I also get demerits for spelling out christians with lower case?

As long as you’re making snide comments like “I think english must be your second language”, yes.

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So why doesn’t Israel just declare war on Palestine and get it over with?

Would Israel be able to do these things without repercussions? The fact taht Israel has the physical ability to firebomb and invade gaza doesn’t mean it has the political ability to do so.

Others in the area would get involved and I don’t know how much support Israel thinks it would would get from its allies.

It seems you are asking why Israel does not escalate rather than responding with “proportionality”.

The answer is that escalating in the manner you suggest would be immoral, regardless of its practicality.

In fact, there is right now no-one in the middle east who could do squat if Israel did decide to get all WW2 on Gaza, as you recommend. Right now, all of Israel’s neghbours save Jordan are in turmoil of their own - Egypt, Lebanon, Syria.

[Fotheringay-Phipps]

@Damuri_Ajashi

It seems like you are dismissing one of those options out of hand.

Dismissing. I don’t know where you get the “out of hand” part.

Just to be clear, “unilaterally caving” in this case is agreeing to a two state solution or the arab peace initiative. Right?

Without the participation of the most dangerous and militaristic party, yes.

If all parties agree, that’s something else.

No I’m ridiculing people who think that arabs have some sort of genetic predisposition to bloodthirsty insanity. That these guys are pissed off for no discernible reason.

Well then you’re introducing an irrelevant argument and choosing to focus on it instead of what I’ve said.

Let’s assume that the Arabs do not have any sort of genetic predisposition to bloodthirsty insanity, and are not pissed for no discernable reason. My point remains. Now address the point.

I’m saying that if Israel’s inability to reach any sort of reasonable compromise is based on the fact that the Palestinians are all bloodthirsty maniacs then perhaps third parties should work towards shifting power towards the Palestinians.

I’m not sure why this follows, but regardless, you’re changing your position. Your original statement was that this is what you would do if you were the Israelis.

And in Christian countries too. So how does that justify carving a country out of largely arab land?

That’s irrelevant. Let’s assume it doesn’t. Now what?

It is this inability to acknowledge the historical context that makes reconciliation so difficult.

I would say the exact opposite. It’s the refusal to consider the present situation in favor of (your version of) the “historical context” that makes your positions completely impractical.

So maybe the secret to peace isn’t a weak Palestinian nation living in squalor but a powerful Palestinian military that has something to lose. Right now, they’ve got nothing to lose, so they strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up in Israeli cafes.

This is extremely naive.

I can’t think of an example in history of anyone who thought a practical way to make peace would be build up the military prowess of their bitterest enemies that they would have “something to lose”.

You’re holding Israel to a ridiculous standard, expecting them to risk the lives of their people based on some naive notion that you’ve dreamed up.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Ibn_Warraq

Huh?

Because referring to the group that you blame for the current situation in the Middle East as “jews” instead of “Jews” it strikes me as extremely odd.

So, once again, why do you refer to “jews” instead of “Jews”.

Thanks in advance for your answer.

I spelled jews in lower case in post 220.

I used the word jew several times in this thread prior to post 220:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17538901&postcount=47
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17542753&postcount=193
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17545127&postcount=215

In these cases I capitalized the word. I don’t know if ther are other times I used the word “jew” rather than Jew but your point seems pointless. I capitalize the word sometimes and can’t be bothered to press the shift key sometimes. So I’m not really “insisting” on typing out jew instead of Jew.

I also spelled out christian and muslim in the same post so why are you so focused on how I spell out the word jew but not so much on how i spell out the word christian or muslim (or arab for that matter)?

Huh? I haven’t accused you of anti-Semitism.

Of course you have.

I haven’t accused you of being an anti-Semite.

Of course you have.

Now, perhaps you’d like to explain why you think Madeline Albright should be considered a Jew even though she was raised a Catholic since you admit to arguing this.

And I think, I also admitted that I was wrong. You really think you’re doing yourself any favors by bringing up admitted errors from years ago? I think that admitting error makes a poster more credible not less so. You seem to think the opposite.

I think I’m done with you, you bring up picayune bullshit and go off on meaningless tangents far too often and life is too short.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Dissonance

How do the prime ministers, war ministers, and Army generals who were the actual leadership of Imperial Japan not qualify as the leadership of Japan being rounded up and executed for war crimes? The imperial family has never been the actual leadership in Japan; their earthly role is to rubber stamp decisions made by others.

Of course they qualify as leaders.

And if they are only a rubber stamp then how did they ORDER the surrender of Japan? Perhaps their role in post WWII era is purely ceremonial but didn’t they order the surrender of Japan?

You may have heard of them, but clearly know very little about them if you think Japan got off lighter than Germany at Nuremburg. There were far more Japanese executed for war crimes than Germans.

I didn’t know that. I don’t think it matters. The inperial family of Japan still lives.

“Ordered” is an extreme overstatement of what occurred. The Supreme Council for the Direction of the War was deadlocked 3-3 on the issue of surrender, with the military still wanting to continue the war even after both atomic bombs and the Soviet declaration of War. Again, by law the military held all the real cards, at any point they could force the civilian government to dissolve and have a new one formed to the military’s liking by simply having the war minister resign and refuse to appoint a new one. The Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal, one of those sentenced to life imprisonment that you seem to think doesn’t qualify as the leadership of Japan, advised the emperor to make the unprecedented step of telling the council he was in favor of ending the war.

I’m just goping by wikipedia, which, of course, could be wrong. Do you have a cite or something?

If you scroll down the wiki article you linked to the section Attempted military coup d’état (August 12–15)

Yeah, I’d heard about that. It doesn’t seem to say that the emperor was a figurehead with no actual power.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Terr

You’re moving the goalposts. Your post was:

“This paranoia that Israelis have about the ravening hordes of Palestinians that would destroy them it given the ability to do so it overblown and an insurmountable impediment to peace.”

It is not paranoia if there is a precedent.

The precedent doesn’t seem to involve the Palestinians that ran away from teh fighting and ended up in refugee camps for 60 years.

Well, I guess I think its paranoia because people don’t seem to think the arab states are much of a threat and they don’t think that the West Bank (where a lot fo the settlement activity seems to be occurring) is really a threat. So all this is in response to the perceived threat from a militant branch of Hamas in gaza.

So why can’t there be a marshall plan in the west bank?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Jackmannii

It is naive at best to assume that all the trouble was due to the not-so-Grand Mufti. It began long before the Mufti got in bed with Hitler or a Jewish state was established.As long as you’re making snide comments like “I think english must be your second language”, yes.

Its not a snide comment. The guy seems to have trouble with reading comprehension but he is obviously not stupid. He has used strange phrasheology in the past.