airstrikes on Gaza

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

So?

So? The partition map looks like a gerrymander. If they had done it the other way and given the arabs a nation that was 60% arab and 40% jew, they would have had to give the Palestinians part of the upper west side of NYC or Boca Raton.

The borders were drawn to maximise the size of Israel by including any areas that had a sizable Jewish population. If they maximized the size of Palestine to include any area that had a sizable arab population, Israel would be a thin strip along the coast along with a few enclaves here and there.

By that wonderful analogy, I guess I can go and murder my next-door neighbour, who is an immigrant. After all, his presumption in moving to “my” country is exactly the same as if he had moved into my living room!

Your neighbor isn’t taking anything from you the way i would be if I took your living room. conflict on your part is not justified the way it would be if your neighbor moved into your living room. Surely you can see the difference between the two.

Really, do you actually believe that? Do YOU hate immigrants in YOUR country, and think they have no right to be there?

No, not unless they were illegal immigrants (which a lot of the Jews were), but if they tried to carve out a soveriegn state with an identity that was not consistent with my identity, I might not like them very much. If they actually did it, then I’m pretty sure that I would actively dislike them.

No, its only “claim to existence” is exactly the same as that of every other country in the world - that it exists now.

Well, depending on who you talk to, Israel’s right to exist depends, like every other nation, on its ability to continue existing. None of its neighbors are obligated to respect their right to continued existence. And, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, several nations are theoretically at war with Israel. These countries have all offered to recognize Israel and normalize relations with them but they have not taken them up on the offer. They are not obligated to recognize Israel just because Israel insists on it.

What does this even mean?

That I’ll be moving into your living room tomorrow morning.

No, as I said the “justification” for the existence of Israel is that it exists.

Perhaps it would make more sense if we put it in terms of the justification for the creation of israel. The notion that something needs justification to continue to exist is (I agree) a bit silly. They can exist because they do exist. But should they have ever existed in the first place (at least in the middle east, I can make a case that they should have existed in that part of Austria around Innsbruck.

Point out these facts is simply pointing out that the actual problem in this case is not the existence of a state, but the refusal of certain people to deal with it. That refusal to deal was directly encouraged by Israel’s neighbours who offered to rid Palestine of its inconvenient Jewish immigration problem, failed, and thereafter offered … nothing … to the Palestinians displaced by this failed program of ethnic cleansing.

So the problem with my taking over your living room isn’t the fact that I’m living in your living room, its you refusal to deal with the fact that I now live in your living room?

Part of the blame for their plight surely belongs to those Zionists who took an active hand in driving out the Palestinians, during the war; but not all of the blame. That was many decades ago, and other victims of wars have got on with their lives.

So the problem is that the Palestinians aren’t accepting what was done to them graciously enough?:dubious:

One could only imagine how messed up Europe would be right now if Europeans in general took the same attitude - to name just one example, after the end of WW2 Poland moved about 100 miles to the West at the expense of Germany, and millions of ethnic Germans were killed or displaced. Would it not be wonderful if there were refugee camps for all of those Germans, waiting for Poland to dissapear?

I don’t really know that much about the poland/germany thing. Was Poland formed by a bunch of immigrants in a land that was formerly almost entirely German and then proceeded to declare a Polish nation and then proceeded to expel Germans?

I suppose some people might confuse Palestinian arabs for Nazis (well I guess they weren’t all nazis, some were simply colonists/imperialists) and insist that they deserve similar treatment but I am having trouble making the same connection.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

This strikes me as total exaggeration. Hamas has deep roots going back to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is active in Egypt and Syria as well as Gaza. The notion that Israel “created” them is silly. Certainly, as with many Palestinian groups, the Israelis were willing to tolerate them when they thought Hamas was simply a religious alternative to the secular PLO. This was mainly out of a desire not to appear as being “anti-Islamic”.

What is often forgotten is that Hamas gained popularity, not as vicious fighters, but as a religious institution establishing charities and the like - a stark contrast to the corrupt kleptocracy of the PLO. I can only imagine how Israel’s critics would react to Israel harshly cracking down on a Palestinian religious charity - including its blind, elderly founder. Yet fail to do so, and Israel is judged as having “created” Hamas.

If it wasn’t Hamas, it would have been something else. You can’t have generation after generation rowing up under the boot like that without creating “angry young men” And angry young men seems to be the chief export of the occupied territories and I don’t think that changes until you change the soil in which they grow.

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

If it wasn’t Hamas, it would have been something else. You can’t have generation after generation rowing up under the boot like that without creating “angry young men” And angry young men seems to be the chief export of the occupied territories and I don’t think that changes until you change the soil in which they grow.

Yet, for some reason, the West Bank has evolved differently from Gaza. Could it be that ideology does matter? The current situation in Gaza is about exactly what one would expect, reading the Hamas Charter - which, you may note, calls for perpertual war and describes peace as “un-Islamic”.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

Immigrants again. What do you have against immigrants? Does that hatred extend to the children of immigrants?

You don’t think it is relevant that a group of people that are trying to carve out a nation in an already populated area are mostly immigrants? Seriously?

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So? The partition map looks like a gerrymander. If they had done it the other way and given the arabs a nation that was 60% arab and 40% jew, they would have had to give the Palestinians part of the upper west side of NYC or Boca Raton.

The borders were drawn to maximise the size of Israel by including any areas that had a sizable Jewish population. If they maximized the size of Palestine to include any area that had a sizable arab population, Israel would be a thin strip along the coast along with a few enclaves here and there.

And would the Arabs have accepted that? Answer is pretty clear - no.

Your neighbor isn’t taking anything from you the way i would be if I took your living room. conflict on your part is not justified the way it would be if your neighbor moved into your living room. Surely you can see the difference between the two.

And how is an immigrant group voting to form a new nation “taking away” from you? Do immigrants not have the same rights of self-determination as “non immigrants”?

My neighbour should not get a vote?

No, not unless they were illegal immigrants (which a lot of the Jews were), but if they tried to carve out a soveriegn state with an identity that was not consistent with my identity, I might not like them very much. If they actually did it, then I’m pretty sure that I would actively dislike them.

That, then, would be too bad. If a bunch of immigrants moves into my city and votes a new mayor, and they outnumber us “old timers”, I am not justified in killing them.

Well, depending on who you talk to, Israel’s right to exist depends, like every other nation, on its ability to continue existing. None of its neighbors are obligated to respect their right to continued existence. And, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, several nations are theoretically at war with Israel. These countries have all offered to recognize Israel and normalize relations with them but they have not taken them up on the offer. They are not obligated to recognize Israel just because Israel insists on it.

So, the guy declaring war is in the right? He then can hardly complain if the other guy beats him up and takes his stuff.

That I’ll be moving into your living room tomorrow morning.

?

Perhaps it would make more sense if we put it in terms of the justification for the creation of israel. The notion that something needs justification to continue to exist is (I agree) a bit silly. They can exist because they do exist. But should they have ever existed in the first place (at least in the middle east, I can make a case that they should have existed in that part of Austria around Innsbruck.

What consequences if it later turn out that the creation of the state was not justified? Pack up and ‘go home’? Where, exactly?

So the problem with my taking over your living room isn’t the fact that I’m living in your living room, its you refusal to deal with the fact that I now live in your living room?

If some immigrants move into your country, the land they inhabit is no longer “yours”.

So the problem is that the Palestinians aren’t accepting what was done to them graciously enough?:dubious:

The indictment is not of Palestinians, but of their fellow Arabs.

I don’t really know that much about the poland/germany thing. Was Poland formed by a bunch of immigrants in a land that was formerly almost entirely German and then proceeded to declare a Polish nation and then proceeded to expel Germans?

No, ethnic Germans were ethnically cleansed by a vengeful Red Army, and the Soviets proceeded to move the border of Poland to the West. The Soviets forcibly moved thousands of people - poles and ukrainians - to inhabit those lands.

My wife’s family was one that was forcibly relocated in this manner. Her relatives were moved to a farm that had been owned by ethnic Germans. As it happens, these ones survived, and many years later (early 1970s) they were visited by this German family - slightly awkward.

I suppose some people might confuse Palestinian arabs for Nazis (well I guess they weren’t all nazis, some were simply colonists/imperialists) and insist that they deserve similar treatment but I am having trouble making the same connection.

Ethnic Germans were not “colonialists”, and while no doubt some were Nazis, that wasn’t why they were crushed. They had lived in those lands for centuries.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Velocity

So, if Israel “has no right to exist,” what should it do? Disband? Send all 7+ million Israelis packing?

Of course not. It should make peace with its neighbors and lift their boot from the neck of the people they are oppressing. Their neighbors have offered peace in exchange for 1967 borders and a resolution of the Palestinian refugee issue along the lines of UN resolution 194 which envisions giving Palestinians an option between a right of return and restitution or any other negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinians.

I think all arab states (except Libya) have adopted and endorsed the peace initiative. Hamas is still holding out but as has been stated before, it is not clear that Hamas will ever agree to peace with Israel. So Israel can either make peace with those who would make peace with it and deal with those that won’t. Right now all they so is create angry young men to serve as fresh recruits for hamas with everything they do and say.

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Of course not. It should make peace with its neighbors and lift their boot from the neck of the people they are oppressing. Their neighbors have offered peace in exchange for 1967 borders and a resolution of the Palestinian refugee issue along the lines of UN resolution 194 which envisions giving Palestinians an option between a right of return and restitution or any other negotiated settlement between Israel and the Palestinians.

I think all arab states (except Libya) have adopted and endorsed the peace initiative. Hamas is still holding out but as has been stated before, it is not clear that Hamas will ever agree to peace with Israel. So Israel can either make peace with those who would make peace with it and deal with those that won’t. Right now all they so is create angry young men to serve as fresh recruits for hamas with everything they do and say.

Are you claiming that if it does have a “right to exist” then it should not do what you are proposing?

If not, what earthly difference does having a “right to exist” make?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

Yet, for some reason, the West Bank has evolved differently from Gaza. Could it be that ideology does matter? The current situation in Gaza is about exactly what one would expect, reading the Hamas Charter - which, you may note, calls for perpertual war and describes peace as “un-Islamic”.

So why keep building settlements in the West Bank? What sort of message does that send to the folks in Gaza?

The Hamas charter sounds a lot like par for the course for when hamas was created. I suspect the PLO says much the same thing before it was amended.

And of course ideology matters. I’m saying that if Hamas wasn’t there with its ideology, another group would be. Hamas didn’t exist in 1948. It seems to me that Hamas became more extreme as the PLO moderated. If Hamas started moderating tomorrow I suspect that another group would start attracting all the angry young men the following day. You seem to be saying that if Hamas disbanded tomorrow, then all those angry young men would sit around doing nothing.

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So why keep building settlements in the West Bank? What sort of message does that send to the folks in Gaza?

What sort of message did dismantling the settlements in Gaza and pulling out of the occupation of Gaza sent the Israelis? That resulted in the current mess.

The Hamas charter sounds a lot like par for the course for when hamas was created. I suspect the PLO says much the same thing before it was amended.

And of course ideology matters. I’m saying that if Hamas wasn’t there with its ideology, another group would be. Hamas didn’t exist in 1948. It seems to me that Hamas became more extreme as the PLO moderated. If Hamas started moderating tomorrow I suspect that another group would start attracting all the angry young men the following day. You seem to be saying that if Hamas disbanded tomorrow, then all those angry young men would sit around doing nothing.

If angry young men make something like Hamas inevitable, how on earth do you explain the WB moderating?

I think if Hamas disbanded tomorrow, the Israelis would have no reason to hammer on Gaza any more, and some sort of peace would become possible.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

And would the Arabs have accepted that? Answer is pretty clear - no.

Probably not. But it was still a pretty unfair partition.

And how is an immigrant group voting to form a new nation “taking away” from you? Do immigrants not have the same rights of self-determination as “non immigrants”?

“The Plan was accepted by the Jewish public, except for its fringes, and by the Jewish Agency despite its perceived limitations.[5][6] With a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution[7] and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division.[8] Their reason was that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[6][9]”

My neighbour should not get a vote?

Sure (as long as they are not illegal immigrants), but it is pretty clear that zionists would not have won a popular vote for the UN partition plan (even if we counted the votes of illegal immigrants).

That, then, would be too bad. If a bunch of immigrants moves into my city and votes a new mayor, and they outnumber us “old timers”, I am not justified in killing them.

But the zionists did not outnumber arabs. In many part of the Israel side of palestine, the jews did not outnumber the arabs.

So, the guy declaring war is in the right? He then can hardly complain if the other guy beats him up and takes his stuff.

So which side do you think declared war in 1967? Wasn’t the declaration of independence an act of war? Of course Palestine can complain, they didn’t start the conflict.

What consequences if it later turn out that the creation of the state was not justified? Pack up and ‘go home’? Where, exactly?

I think Israel should stay right where it is. But it should accept the arab peace initiative and give the Palestinians a choice between (A) a right of return, (B) restitution, or (C) any other peaceful agreement they can reach with the Palestinians. The new Palestinian state would have to root out terrorists or suffer IDF incursions but Israel would have to realize that Palestine will not be able to catch every criminal in their borders. IIRC, Arafat arrested a bunch of Hamas guys once for trying to derail the arab peace initiative with terrorism.

Passover massacre

If some immigrants move into your country, the land they inhabit is no longer “yours”.

If they buy it or rent it, they have the right to occupy it. They do not have the right to declare the building in which they live a sovereign Jewish state because 55% of the people in the building are Jewish.

The indictment is not of Palestinians, but of their fellow Arabs.

Their fellow arabs all seem willing to recognize israel and normalize relations with them.

No, ethnic Germans were ethnically cleansed by a vengeful Red Army, and the Soviets proceeded to move the border of Poland to the West. The Soviets forcibly moved thousands of people - poles and ukrainians - to inhabit those lands.

My wife’s family was one that was forcibly relocated in this manner. Her relatives were moved to a farm that had been owned by ethnic Germans. As it happens, these ones survived, and many years later (early 1970s) they were visited by this German family - slightly awkward.

OK, so then its really not like Israel/Palestine then is it?

Ethnic Germans were not “colonialists”, and while no doubt some were Nazis, that wasn’t why they were crushed. They had lived in those lands for centuries.

Oh. OK. I still don’t think the two situations are similar enough for your analogy.

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

You don’t think it is relevant that a group of people that are trying to carve out a nation in an already populated area are mostly immigrants? Seriously?

You don’t think the so-called “Palestinians” were immigrants?

“Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots; and every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots -- whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties. So where is your affection and mercy? . . . Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called [by the last name] al-Masri [meaning: “the Egyptian”]. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you.”

(Excerpt from speech by Fathi Hammad, then Hamas’ Minister of the Interior and of National Security, aired on Egypt-based Al-Hekmah TV, March 23, 2012)

[BrainGlutton]

@Terr

You don’t think the so-called “Palestinians” were immigrants?

According to genetic studies, they’re the Jews’ cousins. They’re partly descended from Arabs of various nations, yes, but they are also descended from the ancient Hebrews – and almost certainly also descended from the ancient Canaanites, Philistines, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, European Crusaders, Turks – every people who has ever settled in or conquered that crossroads of a country, which the Palestinians’ Hebrew/Canaanite ancestors have inhabited continuously since ancient times. Once again, if “blood and soil” claims mean anything, the Pals have a better claim than the Jews.

And why “so-called “Palestinians””? They’re the indigenous people of Palestine, what name could be better?

[Terr]

@BrainGlutton

According to genetic studies, they’re the Jews’ cousins. They’re partly descended from Arabs of various nations, yes, but they are also descended from the ancient Hebrews – and almost certainly also descended from the ancient Canaanites, Philistines, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, European Crusaders, Turks – every people who has ever settled in or conquered that crossroads of a country, which the Palestinians’ Hebrew/Canaanite ancestors have inhabited continuously since ancient times. Once again, if “blood and soil” claims mean anything, the Pals have a better claim than the Jews.

And why “so-called “Palestinians””? They’re the indigenous people of Palestine, what name could be better?

“The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality, Today, there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak, Today, about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan -- which is a sovereign state with defined borders -- cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa. While, as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beersheba and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”

(Interview given by Zahir Muhsein, head of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s Military Department and a member of its Executive Committee to Amsterdam-based newspaper “Dagblad de Verdieping Trouw”, March 31, 1977)

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

Are you claiming that if it does have a “right to exist” then it should not do what you are proposing?

If not, what earthly difference does having a “right to exist” make?

I think it has to do with Israel’s attitude towards making peace. It feels like it is only getting something it is already entitled to when it makes peace and they are entitled to no such thing. They haven’t earned peace or good relations with their neighbors and their neighbors (and the Palestinians) are justified in trying to eliminate the state of Israel. If Israel wants peace, it will have to acknowledge that they are not simply bargaining for peace, theya re bargaining for the right to a nation. I suspect that is what the arab states and the Palestinians feel they are being asked to give them.

Right now Israel has the upper hand but the Palestinians seem willing to hold out until that changes and Israel no longer has the upper hand. Will the arab peace initiative still be on offer then?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Malthus

What sort of message did dismantling the settlements in Gaza and pulling out of the occupation of Gaza sent the Israelis? That resulted in the current mess.

Did the pull out and de-settlement lead to the violence or was that more the result of a civil war between Hamas and Fatah?

If angry young men make something like Hamas inevitable, how on earth do you explain the WB moderating?

You tell me. Doesn’t Hamas or something like them exist in the West Bank? Are there any other differences between Gaza and the West Bank?

I think if Hamas disbanded tomorrow, the Israelis would have no reason to hammer on Gaza any more, and some sort of peace would become possible.

So you think that those Hamas members would sit at home and do nothing?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Terr

You don’t think the so-called “Palestinians” were immigrants?

“Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots; and every Palestinian, in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots -- whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. We have blood ties. So where is your affection and mercy? . . . Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called [by the last name] al-Masri [meaning: “the Egyptian”]. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you.”

(Excerpt from speech by Fathi Hammad, then Hamas’ Minister of the Interior and of National Security, aired on Egypt-based Al-Hekmah TV, March 23, 2012)

No, they are not immigrants. They were for the most part born there. Most of the Jews in Israel in 1948 were not born there. The fact that the Palestinians have blood ties to people in other parts of the middle east does not mean they were born in these other parts of the middle east does it?

My wife and I were born in Asia. Our children were born here. Our children are not immigrants despite having blood ties to other nations.

Why do you have to dig back to 1977 for a cite that doesn’t even say what you want it to say? I have seen that speech cited for the notion that the Palestinians are not a people or a nation. I don’t think I have ever seen it cited for the notion that the palestinians were all born somewhere else.

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

No, they are not immigrants. They were for the most part born there.

Cite? And if they were born there but were first-generation, are they still immigrants or are now “native”?

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Right now Israel has the upper hand but the Palestinians seem willing to hold out until that changes and Israel no longer has the upper hand.

How has this worked out for the last 60 years? Israel is one of the most prosperous nations on Earth. Palestinian live in a shithole. All for that “willingness to hold out”.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Terr

Cite? And if they were born there but were first-generation, are they still immigrants or are now “native”?

You’re kidding right? You want a cite for the notion that most of Israel’s Jews in 1948 are immigrants from abroad?

The point I am trying to make is that this undermines their claim to the land when they are recent immigrants. When recent immigrants come to a land and call it their own, we sometimes call it colonialism or imperialism and I think what’s going on with Israel seems a lot like that to a lot of people.

@Terr

How has this worked out for the last 60 years? Israel is one of the most prosperous nations on Earth. Palestinian live in a shithole. All for that “willingness to hold out”.

Its worked out horribly and yet they still do not surrender, they only seem to get more pissed off. What makes you think that you can pound them into submission this time around?

[andros]

@Damuri_Ajashi

You’re kidding right? You want a cite for the notion that most of Israel’s Jews in 1948 are immigrants from abroad?

I think he’s looking for a cite that the majority of Palestinians in the area in 1948 were born there.